Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[FlyF4]

Accident seems to be getting a lot of attention. Just a terrible situation. I guess we know only one thing for certain. The Tesla isn't yet smart enough to detect a barrier with the radar and emergency brake the car enough to prevent total destruction and death! Hoping that day will come.

 

[rborovoy]

I drive that flyover in autopilot in my X all the time going from 101 to 85. I keep my speed set at 60, no more, and it works fine. Any faster gets a bit scary.

 

[mongo]

I guess we know only one thing for certain. The Tesla isn't yet smart enough to detect a barrier with the radar and emergency brake the car enough to prevent total destruction and death!

I don't think we can say we know that. Was the car changing lanes on impact (barrier not initially in path)? Was the driver incapacitated and pressing the accelerator? Was the car following another vehicle that changed lanes at the last moment (similar to fire truck accident)?

Soon, we will know more via eye witness reports.

 

[FlyF4]

I don't think we can say we know that. Was the car changing lanes on impact (barrier not initially in path)? Was the driver incapacitated and pressing the accelerator? Was the car following another vehicle that changed lanes at the last moment (similar to fire truck accident)?

Soon, we will know more via eye witness reports.

yup, I buy all that. I guess I am hoping for a best case scenario that the ultimate smart car will eventually realize..... hey something really bad is happening. I'm going to apply the brakes regardless

 

[Blup85]

good point. I've seen that in places in other cities.

You shouldn't have. Traffic Engineering wise if you see yellow on your right side, your going the wrong way! Gore treatments are/should be always white, until you are past the roadway separation on the off-ramp and then you will see yellow. Sometimes with cross hatches in them to enphasize a "don't go in this space" zone. The stripng looks legal/within guidelines from what I can see, of course you can always do more. I would hope Ap knows the difference between a solid white line and a dashed white, to identify where it is legal to cross the line or not. If not FSD has even further to go than I thought.

 

[FlyF4]

I don't think we can say we know that. Was the car changing lanes on impact (barrier not initially in path)? Was the driver incapacitated and pressing the accelerator? Was the car following another vehicle that changed lanes at the last moment (similar to fire truck accident)?

Soon, we will know more via eye witness reports.

Oh and Mongo you just reminded me of something.. Last June, I was trying to pull out of a parking lot and make a left turn. The X would not let me do it because it thought I would have run into a car coming from right to left on the other side of the street. In reality I would not have hit it because there as a WIDE center lane for merging. A car coming from the left could have hit me if it one was coming. It was almost like the X stalled. I could not override it with pressing accelerator. I reported that incident.

 

[mongo]

yup, I buy all that. I guess I am hoping for a best case scenario that the ultimate smart car will eventually realize..... hey something really bad is happening. I'm going to apply the brakes regardless

Yar, like fly by wire planes that don't let you do maneuvers beyond the airframe's capabilities.

 

[FlyF4]

You shouldn't have. Traffic Engineering wise if you see yellow on your right side, your going the wrong way! Gore treatments are/should be always white, until you are past the roadway separation on the off-ramp and then you will see yellow. Sometimes with cross hatches in them to enphasize a "don't go in this space" zone. The stripng looks legal/within guidelines from what I can see, of course you can always do more. I would hope Ap knows the difference between a solid white line and a dashed white, to identify where it is legal to cross the line or not. If not FSD has even further to go than I thought.

You probably know better than me. I'm not expert on that stuff. All I know is that in my home town, there is a split like that and in between the white lines are diagonal lines indicating I am not supposed to be there.

 

[Dr. J]

My guess is excessive speed (considering the flip) and some sort of driver or AP error. Time will tell. Drive safely, y'all!

 

[Blup85]

No I agree with you, white diagonal (I called hatched" lines are a great addition for a gore treatment, it was mentioned they should have been yellow.
Cheers

 

[FlyF4]

Yar, like fly by wire planes that don't let you do maneuvers beyond the airframe's capabilities.

Well now that you mention it. yes. Good point. In my day, the planes let us do stupid crap like rip the wings off (I I really were to be that dumb). Today's planes are pretty smart and won't let me do a lot of things that would be dangerous. Ok I'm getting off the topic and will shut up now.

 

[mongo]

Oh and Mongo you just reminded me of something.. Last June, I was trying to pull out of a parking lot and make a left turn. The X would not let me do it because it thought I would have run into a car coming from right to left on the other side of the street. In reality I would not have hit it because there as a WIDE center lane for merging. A car coming from the left could have hit me if it one was coming. It was almost like the X stalled. I could not override it with pressing accelerator. I reported that incident.

Oh, that was you? I had the memory of the event, but am not sure when accelerator overrides collision avoidance. Given the incidences of destroyed walls, it seems like some conditions can disable AEB. Maybe the brake was barely pressed??

 

[SMAlset]

Hopefully people who actually saw what happened this morning will call Officer Juan Garcia at (650) 369-6261. Not sure what police force he is with but he was listed in the KRON4 article as the contact person. They are trying to gather as much eye witness information as they can.

I would not be surprised if this was a matter of being in the car pool lane (the Tesla did have a white carpool stick on the back bumper) and either meaning to stay on 101 or perhaps want to be on 85. I really have never liked how they reworked the 85 intersection there and it seems like it was years in the making and a real traffic headache in the meantime. Yes, there is signage back some distance alerting drivers to the lane change, but years ago it was much less confusing. Here's a 2016 VTA web site section that shows how the roadway use to be in that first image, and then it goes through the planned changes which is more like where we are now with the new ramp wall etc. Has it really been 10 years? The Route 85/U.S. 101 North Interchange Project Doesn't the original 101 car pool to 85 ramp look much safer to navigate? Does to me.

 

[TEG]

This is how the "protective" barrier is supposed to look ( June 2016 ):

This is what streetview showed for Feb 2017:

(Looks like someone had recently run into it)

And this is what they showed for May 2011:

Looks like someone had hit it there too.
They made the "wall" taller since then so if you managed to smash through the barrier it could cut higher up into the vehicle now.

There aren't that many old photos in streetview, so it was somewhat surprising to find multiple showing the barrier damaged. I have to assume it gets run into quite a bit.

 

[mongo]

No I agree with you, white diagonal (I called hatched" lines are a great addition for a gore treatment, it was mentioned they should have been yellow.
Cheers

Yeah, I brought up yellow. It's not a standard, but for this situation, it seems like something more impressive than white chevrons is called for, fog/ lane lines would still be white for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[mongo]

This is how the "protective" barrier is supposed to look ( June 2016 ):
View attachment 288722

This is what streetview showed for Feb 2017:
View attachment 288723
(Looks like someone had recently run into it)

And this is what they showed for May 2011:
View attachment 288724
Looks like someone had hit it there too.
They made the "wall" taller since then so if you managed to smash through the barrier it could cut higher up into the vehicle now.

There aren't that many old photos in streetview, so it was somewhat surprising to find multiple showing the barrier damaged. I have to assume it gets run into quite a bit.

Do we know if the barrier was intact before today's crash?

Doesn't the original 101 car pool to 85 ramp look much safer to navigate?

Yes, yes it does.

 

[TEG]

That was Nov 2017. I can't tell you if it was still intact this morning.

 

[FlyF4]

Oh, that was you? I had the memory of the event, but am not sure when accelerator overrides collision avoidance. Given the incidences of destroyed walls, it seems like some conditions can disable AEB. Maybe the brake was barely pressed??

Oh, that was you? I had the memory of the event, but am not sure when accelerator overrides collision avoidance. Given the incidences of destroyed walls, it seems like some conditions can disable AEB. Maybe the brake was barely pressed??

Well it was a bit scary because I could see a car coming from the left, but being that I am anal cautious, I don't jump out to cross a lane of traffic and expect nothing to fail. Good thing cos if someone were coming, they would have hit me from the left. In summary, the X would not allow me to accelerate from a stand still because it thought I would be on a collision course with a fast approaching car from the right. It didn't know that my plan was to cross the road and pull into the median. It assumed I was going to go straight and hit that car. Plus, the approaching car was in the far right lane so there was another open lane in between me and the center divide. Gee, it sounds complex and maybe I didn't explain well, but the situation was simple. I guess a photo would be worth a thousand words here.

 

[mongo]

Well it was a bit scary because I could see a car coming from the left, but being that I am anal cautious, I don't jump out to cross a lane of traffic and expect nothing to fail. Good thing cos if someone were coming, they would have hit me from the left. In summary, the X would not allow me to accelerate from a stand still because it thought I would be on a collision course with a fast approaching car from the right. It didn't know that my plan was to cross the road and pull into the median. It assumed I was going to go straight and hit that car. Plus, the approaching car was in the far right lane so there was another open lane in between me and the center divide. Gee, it sounds complex and maybe I didn't explain well, but the situation was simple. I guess a photo would be worth a thousand words here.

No worries, I get the scenario.
I'm wondering what happens if the car is already moving and not on AP with the accelerator pressed, possibly fully.

 

[Az_Rael]

That interchange doesn't look too confusing to me, but it does look ripe for folks trying to merge at the last minute on the 101 (maybe trying to cut ahead or just really, really not paying attention).

Here is the signage at the start of the intersection:

Then this as you get closer:

I am not sure how to mistake that split as another lane unless you are right on it and have not been paying enough attention to the roadway to see the signs leading up to it.

I would guess the poor fellow was making a last minute swerve to get back on the 101 and didn't judge it correctly.



I will say we have a similar interchange I travel a lot down here at the 5N 14 split, where the HOV lane is a left exit to the flyover to the 14. They have put the white markings in the non-lane, but it doesn't help - folks still try to use the space to cut ahead of stopped traffic on the 5 all the time, playing chicken with the barrier.