I've enagaged lawyers in an attempt to recover FSD cost (Australian owner)

[Audietron]

Presumably Elon didn’t write the text of the FSD promises on the Tesla website personally. It’s the job of the people who did write it, along with Tesla’s legal team, to appropriately moderate and define what FSD capabilities are intended to be provided and when, so that Tesla would not ever be confronted with accusations of lying or misleading people.

Their job is not to just shrug their shoulders and meekly accept someone’s “overly optimistic” bias because that’s just the way they are, but to challenge it when it needs to be challenged and provide warnings of what could happen if their advice is ignored. If timeframes were only ever “guesses” then that should have been clearly disclosed, in writing, at the point of sale of the product.

So either those people didn’t do the job they should have done, or they did but Elon didn’t listen. So which was it?

Totally agree....

legally CEO owns all the risks and promises made by company, specifically the ones made by CEO himself over and over after failing on each time... it doesn't matter who exactly mess it up across the organisation (in this case statement made by CEO), as long as it's from official channel - consequences comes only to organisation as whole and CEO as ultimate risk owner.

 

[Audietron]

I believe those estimates were given based on what they believed at the time as has been explained a number of times.

Did they get it wrong? Obviously yes.

Is that unique? Absolutely not! If you want to hold every company to the same standards that every mistake must be repeatedly highlighted and they must be forever punished for making an optimistic prediction which they did not achieve, you are going to be VERY busy.

I prefer to look at the complete picture realise that they are attempting and have repeatedly achieved things that have never been done before and that all of the experts and commentators said were impossible and cut them a little slack on timelines in the same way I have with countless other tech companies.

The mere fact that they are attempting something the scope of FSD would cause the average level headed customer to expect that any estimates given are nowhere near a guarantee and make their decisions accordingly.

In that case should I expect Tesla to perfect windscreen wipers by 2035 - hopefully? they are risking my and every Tesla owners life by skipping $4 rain sensor and trying to achieve vision based functionality by testing it in production cars... being a small feature and knowing how long it has been pending any fix, 10-11 years would be valid guestimate...

It's not called being visionary to add concept feature to production car... it's called careless...
every car companies have ground breaking features and design and ideas - which are released with concept cars - but only the ones complying with safety standards and deemed full functional makes to mainstream... Tesla found way around it by disabling rain sensor and enabling vision based rain detection doesn't make tesla visionary - it's irresponsible if not criminal.

 

[Audietron]

This is the disclaimer I received when choosing FSD from the Australian site in 2019.

The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of kilometers of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.

which may take longer in some jurisdictions....
totally defends them as long as they have it perfected and available on roads in most other jurisdictions - such as most LHD jurisdictions.

 

[Midnight Man]

In that case should I expect Tesla to perfect windscreen wipers by 2035 - hopefully? they are risking my and every Tesla owners life by skipping $4 rain sensor

I'm handing back my Mazda CX-5 rental today after 4.5 months of driving it (my Model Y has been in for hail damage).

The wipers on that car, with your highly praised $4 rain sensor are worse than my Tesla ever was (bear in mind please, as per my signature, I picked up the Tesla in September 2023). I've had 2 dry wipes on my Tesla, and needed on the very odd occasion to manually hit 1 wipe for some super-light mist. On the Mazda, you mostly have to use manual control.

Don't even get me started on Mazda ADAS systems, I consider myself lucky I was able to save the car from itself...

 

[Jules22]

Don't even get me started on Mazda ADAS systems

Yep, I've had TRUE phantom braking in Mazda's, ie full lock up of the brakes for absolutely no reason, not just a slow down of 2-3km/h

As for rain sensors, absolutely, some who like to rant about fraud etc, seem to forget that they are not perfect. I'm not defending the Tesla system, it's got a long way to go, but anyone who has had rain sensors in heavy or undulating volumes of rain will understand why Tesla decided to try to find something better.

The Tesla system is unfortunately very inconsistent, ie in many people's experience, particularly over the past couple of months they've been excellent, better than rain sensors apart from the odd dry wipe, but with the number of people out there still reporting issues, they clearly haven't been solved (though I'd suggest for the person claiming that if having to manually wipe is "risking your life" you might want to hand your license back).

It may very well turn out that the vision based approach for wipers won't work and they have to just settle for the deficincies that exist in rain sensors. The fact that they are willing to try to find a better approach is why we have viable EV's today, the question everything and willingness to do the hard job of looking for better options rather than just settle for 'almost good enough' is why Tesla make the best vehicles in the world. Of course, some here will call them 'frauds' because they tried something and failed if it ever comes to that. At the end of the day Tesla's (and Musk's companies in general) track record of achieving the impossible is unprecedented, so I know who I'll bet on and it isn't some random ranting on a forum.

 

[Audietron]

issue is not dry wipes, which are rare... issue is wet screen not wiped... more frequently when auto driving, but very frequently when manually driven.
It's easy to trigger manual wiper, but that's not the point.... I owned 6-7 Audi before Tesla and none had wiper issues when set to auto... rented 100s of cars from different manufacturers but never had wiper issues when on auto... driven 2 Tesla so far and only since vision based wiper is having issues, otherwise it was perfect...

comparing to Mazda Cx-5 which is voted in NZ as worst car of year is funny... why would you compare Tesla to worst car on road?

Fraud remark are on fraud behaviour with selling FSD.... wiper point is just example of trying new thing on production vehicles instead of test vehicle fleet - as most manufacturer do... it's safe practice and hurts no human lives.

but end of the day you wouldn't convince me or anyone with open eyes and fact based judgement that false advertising on FSD and false promised on FSD timeline are not equalling to Fraud..... same as, neither I or anyone else would be able to convince you or any other blindsided Tesla investor or fan that Tesla could commit fraud....

One of the examples indicating Fraud was proven and accepted by Elon Musk...

SEC.gov | Elon Musk Settles SEC Fraud Charges; Tesla Charged With and Resolves Securities Law Charge

and declaration that all cars have hardware capable of driving better than humans, however putting condition of software capabilities and annual promise of achieving FSD...

All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware | Tesla

www.tesla.com

When we buy a mobile phone, we demand it to work on all features....
When we buy vegetables and ready food from supermarket, we demand it to stick to quality and ingredients it's displaying...
we catch an uber ride, we expect car to be what we booked (comfort, pet, black class etc).....
so when we buy a brand new car, we expect it to work safely and function as promised, including but not limited to any addon (FSD here) we purchased with it or for it (at later date).....

 

[jumpingfool]

@jaykaye Did you decide to move forward with the next stage of your legal challenge?

I have some experience with the NSW tribunal system (which is where this would likely need to go next) and am also in the same boat as you - about to sell my M3P with FSD and annoyed Telsa never delivered. Happy to share the time investment and any costs.

I would DM you but it seems this forum restricts privileges for new users.

 

[Audietron]

@jaykaye Did you decide to move forward with the next stage of your legal challenge?

I have some experience with the NSW tribunal system (which is where this would likely need to go next) and am also in the same boat as you - about to sell my M3P with FSD and annoyed Telsa never delivered. Happy to share the time investment and any costs.

I would DM you but it seems this forum restricts privileges for new users.

knowing your 1st post is to file claim against Tesla, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply delay most rights to your accounts...

 

[JonDarian]

knowing your 1st post is to file claim against Tesla, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply delay most rights to your accounts...

This forum is pretty good about allowing people to express negative opinions about Tesla (some users are less tolerant, but the forum itself is fine). I would not expect @jumpingfool to be treated any differently from other new users.

 

[RobDickinson]

Its pretty standard to restrict some rights to new forum members because of bots and trolls , nothing to see here

 

[meloccom]

Moderators Note:
It’s a built in feature of the forum software to restrict and moderate usage of advanced features until a new member gains a minimum number of posts and it always has been.
Negative comments about Tesla and or their products is allowed. The difficulty is when that becomes an obsession and starts to become FUD. That’s not the situation in this case.

 

[QtownTaxiGreg]

The bad news is tesla have a team of in-house lawyers in australia (you can question why they need that) They will respond and drag it out until you realise the amount you are paying your lawyer is not worth it.

That's not easy to do in a small claims court. You don't even necessarily have to have your lawyer there.

 

[QtownTaxiGreg]

Small Claims and the like are for the little people to take on the nasty people who think because the amount is smaller than legal costs in a full on court action that they can get away with it.

 

[Vostok]

Small Claims and the like are for the little people to take on the nasty people who think because the amount is smaller than legal costs in a full on court action that they can get away with it.

Yes, never forget there are zero- or low- cost options to initiate consumer action against a supplier, which in most cases resolve an issue before being forced to start spending bucks on lawyers and court.

I recently had a complaint against a gift card provider when a store which their website said accepted the card refused to accept it. The gift card provider refused to refund me the money I spent at this store (and take it off the gift card). On my Notes App I kept a record of every email and phone call I had with them seeking a refund, until they made their final refusal.

I then lodged a complaint with NSW Fair Trading. Due to their caseload, it took 6 weeks before they got to mine, but the dossier I sent them was compelling (you need to demonstrate that you have made reasonable efforts to directly resolve it with the supplier), and they called me and said without demur that they would contact the provider and advise them to fully refund me. And lo and behold, 2 weeks later the money was finally in my bank account.

The whole process didn’t cost me a cent and NSW Fair Trading were great to deal with (once they got to my case).

 

[doggy1]

I recollect that the OP here has lawyers in the family who are basically providing free services.

I took a case worth several thousand dollars to NSW Fair Trading without any legal assistance. I had extensive records of contact and photos (the case concerned poor workmanship and I wanted refund of the cost of that because I had to pay twice as much again for rectification). I ensured I used Registered/receipted post to deliver hard copies of everything sent electronically. I was not seeking any compensation, just a refund. Fair Trading was good in telling me what I needed to produce and also did research for me discovering various onion-skin layers of companies and directors. The evening before the case was due to be held in the tribunal, the company CFO got in touch, profoundly apologised and refunded the amount I had requested. So it was successful at the final brink and I would have won the case before the tribunal anyway (according to Fair Trading) but the companies concerned let it go right to the end thereby saving themselves court costs and probably legal fees. But boy, it took a lot of effort and energy and time (almost a year) to recover my money. The company itself has probably lost other business because I have told the whole story of what they did to the several people who have asked me about the quality of their work. A very unhappy customer can lose a company lots of business.

 

[Vostok]

The evening before the case was due to be held in the tribunal, the company CFO got in touch, profoundly apologised and refunded the amount I had requested. So it was successful at the final brink and I would have won the case before the tribunal anyway (according to Fair Trading) but the companies concerned let it go right to the end thereby saving themselves court costs and probably legal fees.

Cynics would suggest that part of the business model of some companies is to hope that customers with financial complaints will eventually give up. Stonewall until capitulation. Or hope the customer does not know about or use the various dispute resolution services governments offer. As you note though, it takes time and effort to take these companies on and you need to keep records of everything.

 

[doggy1]

Cynics would suggest that part of the business model of some companies is to hope that customers with financial complaints will eventually give up.

Absolutely. Even non-cynics might suggest the same!

 

[jaykaye]

UPDATE

After several discussions with others who have been through a similar journey, I've decided to take this to NCAT first. Failing a successful outcome, I may then reconsider local court.

• I opened a new Consumer Claim Application case on the NCAT website.
• The application process took less than 30 minutes (but I had all the documentation ready to go beforehand) and cost $120.
• The online form didn't have an option to export to PDF, so I re-created my application in the offline form and attached it to this post (consumer_claim_application_form_NCAT.pdf).
• I also attached to the NCAT application the invoices from my solicitors (not attached here) and the case details (details_redacted.pdf)
  • The case details document was likely not needed, but it was already prepared for the local court [which I decided not to submit] so we edited it and reused it to bolster the NCAT claim.

My hearing is scheduled for 20th of June, 2024

 

[bgeh]

UPDATE

After several discussions with others who have been through a similar journey, I've decided to take this to NCAT first. Failing a successful outcome, I may then reconsider local court.

• I opened a new Consumer Claim Application case on the NCAT website.
• The application process took less than 30 minutes (but I had all the documentation ready to go beforehand) and cost $120.
• The online form didn't have an option to export to PDF, so I re-created my application in the offline form and attached it to this post (consumer_claim_application_form_NCAT.pdf).
• I also attached to the NCAT application the invoices from my solicitors (not attached here) and the case details (details_redacted.pdf)
  • The case details document was likely not needed, but it was already prepared for the local court [which I decided not to submit] so we edited it and reused it to bolster the NCAT claim.

My hearing is scheduled for 20th of June, 2024

Thanks for the update.

Are you including solicitor fees in your NCAT claim because you are not representing yourself?