How Secure is the Key Card?

[comanchepilot]

Tesla should allow you total control over the vehicle in the app - not merely 'valet mode'.

How about speed is limited to 35mph for the next X hours? Solves the joy ride problem - why does a valet need to do 75 anywhere?

GPS is disabled for the next X days.

Vehicle is long term parked, system deactivated until the passcode is entered or the key is present.

Then 'theft mode' or 'unauthorized' mode - simply sends a 1 minute warning to motor shut down and the car phones home with location.

"You will need to keep your mobile app running in the background" No doubt accessing your location 24/7 - now that won't burn up your phone battery, will it?

and finally, Tesla and you agree to allow them to provide your location history to law enforcement when they believe it necessary. Not with a warrant or other probable cause. But when THEY believe it necessary. Should prove interesting down the road. You REALLY want a car from a company who will likely disclose your private information whenever THEY choose? I already warned my bride about this 'feature.' Good thing she's mostly a law abiding citizen - but the data they have by VIN is vast.

 

[ElectricKiwi]

The manual says up to 3 phones can be paired w/the car. So in my scenario, I'll count the watch as a phone.

My phone, my watch, and my wife's phone.

But just as the person who has to leave the phone in the car all day, I'm going to assume I will have to turn bluetooth off, otherwise, the car will "see" the phone as being in the car, and as is usually a built-in safety in proximity keys, the car won't lock in that situation.

It's not a huge deal, but I'd like to have the option to pair my watch and leave the phone behind.

Ah, I didn't realize they allowed up to three. This might be the excuse I need to buy the Watch 3 with GPS and upgrade my v1. Thanks for the info, this clarifies things nicely.

 

[ElecFan]

Thank goodness - someone else who is not a fan boy.

I don't own a Tesla, thought my spouse will shortly. Thus I think I have the right to have an opinion - and they truly are screwed up from the business perspective. They have zero appreciation for customer privacy and insist on business practices which border on the insane when looked at from the last 75 years of customer focussed management.

Tesla is the Borg. You will be assimilated.

Everyone has a right to have an opinion. I am curious where your 'Borg-assimilation'-ideas refer to.

Edit: I see you already answered the question. Yes, an intrusion in privacy. I wonder when they will be stopped by the juridical system.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Ah, I didn't realize they allowed up to three. This might be the excuse I need to buy the Watch 3 with GPS and upgrade my v1. Thanks for the info, this clarifies things nicely.

No problem.

I had a Moto 360 watch, but learned that one should not tend to a campfire whilst wearing an LCD screen on your wrist..........

so this time around, I wanted, NFC, BLE, the option to use a SIM card standalone phone data, and a major/widely supported Wearable OS......

I'm not an Apple guy, and Samsung has their own OS, which is unlikely to get any love from Tesla, so I went with an LG Watch Sport.

I'm hoping Tesla extends support for their phone app over to the watch, which would bode well for Model 3 functionality.

 

[dsvick]

are we sure the hinge isn't on a spring?


my Audi A3 (sedan version) will "open" when unlocked, because the hinge is on a spring. pretty easy from a manufacturing standpoint, as opposed to motorizing it.

That`s exactly what I meant. This is a feature I´ve had in all my cars for a good 12 years and really don`t want to miss anymore. Some kind of auto open for the trunk is a must for me, be it a proximity sensor, a spring or anything else.

I assume that if you "open" the trunk from the app or the screen it will behave like a normal trunk and pop open a little bit so you just have to lift it. If, on the other hand, it unlocks due to proximity of a smart phone (or tapping the keycard) that you would then need to press the button above the license plate and then lift it. Keep in mind that I did say "assume" so I reserve the right to be completely wrong.

 

[K-MTG]

It would be nice if Tesla can send us a notification if the door was left open (Especially for X owners) or if the car is unlocked for an extended period of time.

A notification would also be nice if the car starts driving when a phone isn’t present....my uncles car got stolen after dropping it off at the valet who left the keys inside...they didn’t even noticed until it was time to pick up the car several hours later when they couldn’t find it...they located the car in Compton

 

[JPP]

...OK, so once biometrics arrive, then we can argue about how strong your brain waves/EEG is/are, and how much you need to think about unlocking your Tesla before it unlocks. And in what language (...see the movie Firefox)?

 

[gambit48]

and finally, Tesla and you agree to allow them to provide your location history to law enforcement when they believe it necessary. Not with a warrant or other probable cause. But when THEY believe it necessary. Should prove interesting down the road. You REALLY want a car from a company who will likely disclose your private information whenever THEY choose? I already warned my bride about this 'feature.' Good thing she's mostly a law abiding citizen - but the data they have by VIN is vast.

You know about what the cell phone companies have on you and how they're selling it?

Mobile phone companies appear to be providing your number and location to anyone who pays

 

[ElecFan]

I like the idea that my 50.000 dollar car will be easy retraceable when stolen.

 

[comanchepilot]

You know about what the cell phone companies have on you and how they're selling it?

Mobile phone companies appear to be providing your number and location to anyone who pays

I can turn that off- and have done so.

As for where you are triangulated in cell zone - yeah well. At least you can turn it off.

 

[comanchepilot]

I like the idea that my 50.000 dollar car will be easy retraceable when stolen.

$95,000 car. Fixed that for you.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

$95,000 car. Fixed that for you.

not sure who you fixed that for, but anyone paying $95,000 for either of the currently publicized configurations of this car (RWD short range, RWD Long range) is insane.......

 

[Topher]

In 20 years there will be nothing that requires a physical key anymore.

Not what I said. But yes, nothing new will come with a key, maybe 10 years. The point I was making is that starting a car with a key is an arcane sequence which will quickly be forgotten once it is no longer necessary. And young people will need a manual to learn how to do it.

If that is possible, I will. Sometimes there are features that can't be turned off. Didn't know whether that was one of those.

There are two switches on the Model 3 UI, which turn off "walk away lock" and "walk up open", confirmed.

But I agree with you that the tendency of kids to become ever more incapable to cope with anything unless it has something to to with a smartphone WILL become ever more
prominent

Please explain the correct sequence for starting a car with manual choke, manual spark advance, and hand crank. Or for making a fire with just things you can find in your local woods. Which knowledge is important depends very much on your environment.

Thank you kindly.

 

[gregd]

But just as the person who has to leave the phone in the car all day, I'm going to assume I will have to turn bluetooth off, otherwise, the car will "see" the phone as being in the car, and as is usually a built-in safety in proximity keys, the car won't lock in that situation.

I've been concerned about this whole phone-as-key thing, from both personal safety and usability perspectives. I asked about the system at the local SC, and while they said they don't yet know about the model 3, the S & X have sensors in the seats so they know that when nobody's in the car, a "key" (aka phone) left in the car won't unlock it. The same problem for a S/X key fob left in a purse, though they still recommended putting it in the trunk so that it wouldn't be seen. I didn't grill them on the inconsistencies in their statements.

My recommendation still is to make the keycard your primary key, and the phone secondary (paired but not have the app running), except under known and controlled circumstances. This gives you explicit control over when the doors get locked and unlocked, instead of depending on the car to read your mind as to what to do. There are too many corner cases where the car may take the wrong action because you (or an IT-challenged family member) forgot to disable something when they threw their purse/backpack/briefcase in the car. Too many opportunities for the wrong outcome, for example, the car being (default) configured to unlock all doors when you approach, and having a "bad guy" laying in wait on the other side, out of view. Did you remember to change that setting when you left? Every time? Usability shouldn't be at the expense of safety. With the S/X you can control things with a press on the Fob. No fob on the 3, and I wouldn't recommend messing with a cell phone while walking in a parking garage at night.

 

[brkaus]

@gregd if I leave the key in my S, it remains unlocked. Seat sensor or not.

I haven’t tried it in a while. Will test again tomorrow.

I keep an altoids box in the car to shield the key if I want it to lock. I could probably just turn off passive entry and lock with the app too.

I feel like folks are making this too complicated. The phone acts just like a key fob. There are many cars with passive entry these days.

Sure, there are corner cases. Someone can accidentally leave the key in the car and it will stay unlocked. Most would not even notice as the door handles are recessed and there is no visible lock. And you always know where the car is with the app.

With a key, there is a corner case if you leave it in your bag and lock it in the trunk your stuck. You need to pay a locksmith or have someone bring a spare key. Sure, you could argue that the car won’t get stolen so it’s minor. But one would still miss their important meeting, flight, etc. and possibly cost them money.

 

[gregincal]

I've been concerned about this whole phone-as-key thing, from both personal safety and usability perspectives. I asked about the system at the local SC, and while they said they don't yet know about the model 3, the S & X have sensors in the seats so they know that when nobody's in the car, a "key" (aka phone) left in the car won't unlock it. The same problem for a S/X key fob left in a purse, though they still recommended putting it in the trunk so that it wouldn't be seen. I didn't grill them on the inconsistencies in their statements.

My recommendation still is to make the keycard your primary key, and the phone secondary (paired but not have the app running), except under known and controlled circumstances. This gives you explicit control over when the doors get locked and unlocked, instead of depending on the car to read your mind as to what to do. There are too many corner cases where the car may take the wrong action because you (or an IT-challenged family member) forgot to disable something when they threw their purse/backpack/briefcase in the car. Too many opportunities for the wrong outcome, for example, the car being (default) configured to unlock all doors when you approach, and having a "bad guy" laying in wait on the other side, out of view. Did you remember to change that setting when you left? Every time? Usability shouldn't be at the expense of safety. With the S/X you can control things with a press on the Fob. No fob on the 3, and I wouldn't recommend messing with a cell phone while walking in a parking garage at night.

Note that everything you say applies to the Model S and X and every single other car with proximity lock/unlock. I never ever take the Model S fob out of my pocket. I never change settings. I just let the car lock and unlock at the appropriate times and it works just fine. I would never leave my expensive phone in the car in the first place, but I admit my Mom has had problems leaving her purse in my parent's Camry and it not locking. I'm not quite sure what difference it makes to have a fob if you leave the fob in the car. If a bad guy is waiting on the other side of the car, what difference does it make whether you unlock the car with a phone, a fob or a key for that matter?

 

[Blissedout]

I've never really understood the conflicting viewpoints a single person can have on this subject:

- Wants to own one of the most technologically advanced vehicles available, not only in 2017, but in all of human history to date.

- Doesn't have a smartphone.

I'm one of those. I am prehistoric, or at least pre-boomer. I like quiet. Tesla's are quiet. I have a dumb phone with texting blocked so I don't get disturbed by texts. However, once my granddaughters get their own smartphones, I will have to cave in and get one. Sometimes I am the only one at the dining table who does not have their face buried in their phone....but then I have no one to talk to. So I get to chew in silence.

PS. I am pretty sure that when the Martians first populated the Earth they had some pretty cool rides.

 

[Blissedout]

Seriously, yes, I don't have any and to my knowledge haver never used one in my whole life.

1) Our company has ID cards with magnet stripes like on debit cards that you pull through a scanner.
2) Every parking garage I have ever been to had paper tickets with magnet stripes. We don't have a parking garage here at work, and parking in the city (as well as rush hour traffic) is hideous anyway, which is why I use public transport. (And my ticket is as low-tech as it gets. Just a paper ticket valid three years with no tech whatsover. The valid until date and all other dates are just printed on the paper. And the conductor just does a visual check to see if everything is in order. Perhaps quaint, but simple and effective.
3) Don't know about storage "facilities" here. Most people have their stuff in their homes/basements/garages/on their grounds (which tend to be locked with physical keyes. Same with garden gates, garage doors, garden sheds etc.
4) All the hotels I have been to (yet) had physical keys or keycards with magnet stripes. Then again, I am not in hotels very often. On holidays we usually stay with friends i.e. in private residences, or in small places like B&B's or small hotels that most often don't have the latest tech anyway.

Germany seems to be behind in some areas when compared to the US. Otoh, I much prefer our infrastructure, which seems to be in a far better shape than most of what I had the chance to observe in the US. Many of your roads for example are in worse shape than what we had in the communist eastern part of Germany for many years.



Wow. We must really seem old fashioned in that respect. Our buses have buttons you press when you want to get out at the next stop. Another use-case where something like and RFID solution (requiring passengers to carry cards with them plus readers in the bus for just one task) seems unnecessarily complicated in contrast to a simple button.

In the US all new credit and debit cards have a RFID chip because they are more secure (we are told). I thought we were catching up to Europe. All new US passports have them also.

 

[gregd]

@gregd if I leave the key in my S, it remains unlocked. Seat sensor or not.

Interesting. I was just quoting what the SC guy told me. (I have a Roadster, which uses a physical key with a button on it to do the unlock.)

Note that everything you say applies to the Model S and X and every single other car with proximity lock/unlock. I never ever take the Model S fob out of my pocket. I never change settings. I just let the car lock and unlock at the appropriate times and it works just fine. I would never leave my expensive phone in the car in the first place, but I admit my Mom has had problems leaving her purse in my parent's Camry and it not locking. I'm not quite sure what difference it makes to have a fob if you leave the fob in the car. If a bad guy is waiting on the other side of the car, what difference does it make whether you unlock the car with a phone, a fob or a key for that matter?

Understood, but there is a difference. Again, my understanding based on some research, not first-hand. But for the safety-concerned (my wife insisted on this), one should never unlock all doors without explicitly commanding the car to do so. On our previous car, it was a twist-and-hold of the key; on her current one, it's a double-click of the fob. I believe on the S/X you can configure the fob to behave similarly, i.e. only unlock the driver's door on approach and push the fob for the others, or even require the fob click to do the unlock. If you're alone, the driver's door (and only that door) unlocks, you get in, lock the door, and drive off, without the bad guy getting a chance to jump in. The usability-meets-security aspect is that you will never remember to change the car's settings every time you get out. It has to be a one-time setting that works in all situations.

The use-case for leaving a phone/purse/wallet in the car is when going on a run or some other event where carrying the things on your person would be a problem. My wife was constantly doing this, since I had my keys in my pocket, and she wouldn't have to carry her trunk-sized purse around. But perhaps that's a topic for a different thread...

 

[AceSkywalker]

Not what I said. But yes, nothing new will come with a key, maybe 10 years. The point I was making is that starting a car with a key is an arcane sequence which will quickly be forgotten once it is no longer necessary. And young people will need a manual to learn how to do it.



There are two switches on the Model 3 UI, which turn off "walk away lock" and "walk up open", confirmed.



Please explain the correct sequence for starting a car with manual choke, manual spark advance, and hand crank. Or for making a fire with just things you can find in your local woods. Which knowledge is important depends very much on your environment.

Thank you kindly.

Nothing new will come with a key in 10 years is a very optimistic statement. Smart home locks aren't a thing in many homes, even new high end homes that have stuff like rooftop solar, Nest thermostats and mesh Wi-Fi lack them. Homeowners just aren't demanding smart locks. I have only seen electronic locks at workplaces where access control to different sectors is important. Also, a lot of smart home locks necessitate the use of a smartphone app; i'm not gonna give a latchkey kid in the fourth grade a smartphone.

The key card is as secure as you. The human is 99% the weakest link in the security keychain. That being said, I'm going to exclusively use the keycard. My personal policy when it comes to smartphones assumes that the phone will magically fail to function upon waking up one day (it did one time on a trip overseas, lost access to email, calls and all my travel photos taken on the phone). I am also very lazy when it comes to charging things, and I'd rather have something critical like access to my vehicle off my phone.