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Discussion of The Rocket Equation and Different Types of Rocket Propulsion

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This is how I think of the Oberth Effect; it seems like free energy - despite the explanations.
All of the above explanations of the Oberth Effect are pretty much equivalent; it's just a question of which appeals most to your intuition. It's not free energy; energy and momentum of the entire system (rocket + exhaust + planet) are always conserved.

Another way to think about it is in terms of tidal forces. Pretend the rocket splits in half at closest approach to the planet, with the forward section gaining 50m/s and the aft section losing 50ms. As the two rocket pieces escape the gravitational well, tidal forces will cause the rocket system to "stretch" and for the two pieces to get further apart faster than they would based on momentum alone; their relative speed increases from 100m/s to something larger. (In the limiting case where the forward section just barely achieves escape velocity, it will continue outward forever, while the aft section eventually falls back to the planet at high speed, so the relative velocity will become extreme.) With a rocket burn at periapsis, the propellant functions as the "aft end" of the rocket in this scenario. The other key is that a given rocket burn imparts a fixed amount of momentum, not a fixed amount of energy. A change in momentum at high speed will impart much more energy than the same change in momentum at low speed. (And the propellant loses correspondingly more energy at high speed, so everything balances out.)

Another way to think about it: for an outbound object, gravity causes a fixed loss of momentum per unit time. If you can escape a gravitational well in less time, you will lose less momentum getting out. (The energy loss is the same regardless of speed, but the momentum loss is not.) Counterintuitive, but this is the basis for the Oberth effect! No perpetual motion machines required :)

Yet another way to think about it: it's roughly equivalent to "pumping" a swingset at the bottom of the swing. This is a much more efficient way to gain amplitude than trying to pump at the top of the swing. The higher velocity at the bottom of the swing means that the changes in momentum (pumping the swing) adds a lot more energy when done there. It's not exactly analogous because there's no propellant involved [depending what you ate for lunch], but there are conceptual similarities.

Incidentally, the most efficient way to gain escape velocity from our solar system is as follows: First fly to Jupiter, then use a gravitational assist to lose most of your angular momentum with respect to the sun. Then, fall (almost) directly into the sun, performing an Oberth maneuver at perihelion while being whipped around the sun ridiculously fast. If you can avoid getting fried to a crisp, this little maneuver will slingshot you out of the solar system at ludicrous speed. This wonderful short story illustrates the concept.
 
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I'm throwing this in here because it smacks of cold fusion claims and I don't know where else I'd put it, but also because of a comment that was made on slashdot about this


This is how I think of the Oberth Effect; it seems like free energy - despite the explanations.
The difference is that the Oberth Effect cannot be leveraged to create a perpetual motion machine, but the reactionless drive can. The Oberth Effect doesn't violate conservation of energy / momentum, but the reactionless drive does.

The reason I'm skeptical of the reactionless drive is this: every particle-physics interaction we've ever observed, precisely preserves both energy and momentum. And none of the particle interactions inside the "reactionless drive" are occurring in an environment that hasn't been exhaustively studied in particle physics experiments before. If you add a bunch of zeroes together, the result will still be zero. Yet the claim is that all the particle interactions inside the reactionless drive are somehow summing to something strongly non-zero, in terms of creating energy / momentum. If true, this implies there must be much simpler particle interactions that should also violate conservation of energy / momentum. Yet, it beggars belief that a century of particle physics experiments under an extraordinarily wide range of conditions has somehow missed this. The far more likely explanation is that the reactionless-drive experimenters are wrong, in their measurements and/or assumptions. (I do hope they're right, but I'm quite sure they're wrong.)
 
I like the imagery, but I don't know that the explanation matches the physics. Yes, the outbound transit time is less, but does that actually mean anything?
Potential energy (Pe) is mass*height*gravity, there is no accounting for the time it took to get to that altitude.
Work is force*distance, in this case height. Crossing the distance faster requires greater power, but net energy of altitude change is the same. f=m*a, d=h, same as Pe.

The lesser speed decrease in the second situation is due to kinetic energy being proportional to the square of velocity.
150 vs 100 is 2.25 the inital energy. The ascent converts the same amount to potential energy in both cases, but in the second would still have 1.25 times case one's kinetic energy left over, meaning the velocity at the balloon altitude would still be greater than the original drop's final velocity.

I think the gravity well is a red herring because potential energy cancels out, and the root difference is the increase in energy imparted to the rocket by burns at higher speeds.
Ke=1/2*m*v², so the same delta-v requires a greater increase in kinetic energy the faster the rocket is going:
Kef=1/2*m*(Vi+Vd)² = 1/2*m*(Vi²+2Vi*Vd+Vd²)
Net Ke change: 1/2*m*(2*Vi*Vd+Vd²)

Given a rocket's delta-v budget doesn't care about intermediate velocities (note: rocket centric, not gravity assist trajectory planning), the topic de-jour (as I understand it) is the method by which the same engine burn can produce wildly different amounts of energy change in the rocket.

Kinetic energy's square term: If one is decelerating a moving object with a constant force, the object's velocity determines the distance over which the force is applied, twice the speed means twice the time to decelerate during which it is traveling twice as fast, thus 4x the distance.
position=-1/2*a*t² + Vi*t

Stopping time = Vi/a
Stopping distance = -1/2*Vi²/a + Vi²/a = 1/2*Vi²/a
f=ma, a=f/m
d = 1/2*Vi²*m/f
Work=f*d
Work=f*1/2*Vi²*m/f = 1/2*m*Vi² = Ke

Which does lend itself to the line of thought that at higher velocity the same burn duration with the same engine force occurs over a longer distance thus work done to the rocket is greater. This then requires the energy lost by the exhaust to be greater. So maybe both ways of looking at it are correct along with being numerically equivilent @scaesare ?

And they may both link back to position/ height having a square term for time, thus Pe does internally for a trajectory.
Calc I did to try and get my mind aligned:
In a vacuum, potential energy plus kinetic is a constant, regardless of the time in flight: Pe= m*h*a, h=-1/2*a*t² + t*Vi =m*(-1/2a²t²+atVi) Ke= 1/2*m*v², v=Vi-a*t = 1/2*m*(Vi²-2atVi+a²t²) Pe+Ke=m*(1/2*Vi²-atVi+1/2*a²t² -1/2*a²t² + atVi) =1/2*m*Vi² = inital Ke = final Pe at t=Vi/a, h=1/2*Vi²/a (ignoring gravity falling off with distance)
1713713803194.png
 
I'm throwing this in here because it smacks of cold fusion claims and I don't know where else I'd put it, but also because of a comment that was made on slashdot about this


Here's the slashdot comment:



This is how I think of the Oberth Effect; it seems like free energy - despite the explanations.

Wow... that article claims:

discovery of a fundamental new force

That's... uh.. signficant.

It seems to say electrostatics are involved, but that's not a fundamental new force, and:

The electrostatic force is also known as the Coulomb force or Coulomb interaction. It's the attractive or repulsive force between two electrically charged objects.

So in space, what's that gonna push against?
 
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I would not describe it as the “discovery of a fundamental new force” when no explanation is provided as to what the force is.

If there is a “new force” I’ll believe it when a plausible theoretical explanation is made and it is then verified independently by multiple researchers with peer review.
 
"New forces" have been "experimental error" for a while now. "According to known physics, it shouldn't do this, but it does, so that means there is new physics involved instead of experimental error."

With the cost of mass to orbit about to crater, all these crazy experiments that need to be demonstrated in zero gravity may get a chance to show their stuff.
 
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Came across this on the NASA website Pulsed Plasma Rocket (PPR): Shielded, Fast Transits for Humans to Mars
Howe Industries is currently developing a propulsion system that may generate up to 100,000 N of thrust with a specific impulse (Isp) of 5,000 seconds. The Pulsed Plasma Rocket (PPR) is originally derived from the Pulsed Fission Fusion concept, but is smaller, simpler, and more affordable. The exceptional performance of the PPR, combining high Isp and high thrust, holds the potential to revolutionize space exploration. The system’s high efficiency allows for manned missions to Mars to be completed within a mere two months.
The Howe Industries website is light on specifics.
 
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The Howe Industries website is light on specifics.
A pulsed plasma thruster takes a material like Teflon (!), throws an electric arc at it to create a charged gas cloud (plasma), then accelerates that plasma by the use of charged plates. Because of the time to recharge the plates, the operation is pulsed, but the frequency is high enough that you wouldn't notice discrete accelerations.

Either Wikipedia is badly out of date or these guys are dreaming. Wikipedia says that PPTs are used for stuff like attitude control on small vehicles, but Howe Industries is talking about generating 10 tons of thrust. With an Isp 13 times that of a Raptor vacuum engine, it would make a phenomenal engine for spaceflight.

The exhaust velocities on these things are speculated to be through the roof, with literature casually throwing around "tens of km/s". NASA flew a small, experimental pulsed plasma device in 2000 that achieved an exhaust velocity of 13.7 km/s. Based on that, if you want to take 100 tons of cargo to Mars with a 100 ton vehicle, you'd need only 110 tons of Teflon.

Um.

If they can get 10 tons of thrust from the thing, then that spacecraft would reach Mars in about 7 days. And that's without taking into account greater acceleration as they use up the Teflon. Accelerate half the distance, then brake half the distance.

The math is pretty simple. The thruster generates 10 tons of thrust for a 330 ton spacecraft. That's 0.030 g, or 0.30 m/s2. Time taken to travel a distance under constant acceleration is sqrt(2d/a), where d is the distance travelled and a is the acceleration. For Mars at 57 million km away, that's about 7 days.

If we assume 1 ton of thrust, that's 0.030 m/s2, and you get there in about 22 days. Constant acceleration is a hell of a drug.

I asked Microsoft's chatbot about the challenges of scaling up PPTs, and I got a response that talked about coupled circuit equations, time-varying current in the thruster and one-dimensional momentum equations. Plus lots of other stuff that's fairly meaningless to me. It sounded sufficiently esoteric that the technology is not yet at the point where engineers to go and build one, despite NASA having built and flown a tiny one 24 years ago.

Linearly scaling that tiny thruster to 100,000 Newtons means providing something like 10 megawatts of power. If provided by using the new solar arrays as found on the ISS (ROSA), that would translate to a little over 100 tons. So I guess the vehicle mass is in the right ballpark. It might be twice the number I used, but not ten times.

Edit: Oh, it's a Phase 1 contract. So they're just gonna do some math and think about how they might tackle it.
 
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If they can get 10 tons of thrust from the thing, then that spacecraft would reach Mars in about 7 days. And that's without taking into account greater acceleration as they use up the Teflon. Accelerate half the distance, then brake half the distance.
That may be a bit optimistic. A vacuum Raptor generates 2200kN at 350s Isp, and burns through roughly a ton of propellant per second. With this new engine at 100kN with 5000s Isp, it would therefore (check my math) burn through a ton of reaction mass (Teflon) in about 5 minutes, so it would consume 110 tons of Teflon in about nine hours. To burn for 7 days straight it would need ~2000 tons of Teflon, which would significantly decrease the acceleration on the front end and substantially increase the total trip time. But if they could increase the Isp to 50,000s, then a Mars trip in a week should be possible! The Isp record so far (with xenon fuel) seems to be around 20,000s: Dual-Stage 4-Grid - Wikipedia
 
That may be a bit optimistic.
Yeah, I glossed over propellant consumption, and that's just dumb. So it's not 10 tons of thrust continuous, but 10 tons of thrust for several hours. Then it has to coast. Then it can brake for several hours at Mars. The rocket equation says that the delta-V is there, but it's not available in the form I thought.

Running the numbers of 100 kN and 5000 s, I get 2.04 kg/s, or 110 tons consumed in 13.5 hours. It's still hours, not days. The split is 7.5 and 6.0 hours, I believe, for acceleration and braking, ignoring the complexities of orbital dynamics. After 7.5 hours of acceleration, the vehicle would be up to 9.6 km/s.

Coasting to Mars at its closest point works out to 68 days.

It's not six months, but it's still two-plus. That's to drop into low Mars orbit. If you can use aerobraking and go direct to the surface then you can come in hotter and use more delta-V for acceleration. LEO is 7.8 km/s, and Starship is designed to handle that, but I don't know what the equivalent number would be on Mars, so I don't know how to balance braking. The hottest vehicle that we've aerobraked at Mars was Pathfinder, at 7.5 km/s.

I'm burnt out on numbers for today, so I'm gonna stop there. But thanks for sanity checking me. The 7 day number didn't seem possible.
 
Just need a space elevator and we can have any amount of fuel delivered for pennies on the pound.
Amazingly, due to inefficiencies of beaming power to space elevator climbers (estimated efficiency around 0.5%), Starship could turn out to be cheaper than the space elevator per kg. I've seen estimated marginal costs of $220/kg for space elevator lifting at wholesale electricity prices, which means that a 150-ton-payload Starship launch would only have to cost $33 million to match it. Starship should be able to loft 30T to GTO, in which case $6.6 million per GTO launch would match the space elevator cost for GEO payloads. Elon's hope is that Starship flights may eventually become even 5-10x cheaper than that, ultimately approaching the cost of the propellant (~$200k per launch) plus minimal maintenance.
 
any thoughts on why Teflon for the medium?
It's stable, it's a solid, and its ablation and ionization characteristics are apparently ideal. So you can electrically zap Teflon and it will turn into a nice plasma for you. It's the material that fits the use. Another solid that can be used is Pyrex glass, believe it or not. You can also throw gases like helium, xenon and argon into it, and even liquids like water and ethanol, but all of them involve plumbing and pumps, making them less attractive. The field isn't studied all that extensively, so there aren't many performance numbers floating around.
 
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