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phantom Braking
- Thread starter mlkirch77
- Start date
Absolutely. Get the ball rolling by talking to a lawyer, then give us the details and contact info to join in.
I'm ordinarily not a fan of litigation as a means to solve a problem, but in this case I think it's justified. Might even breeze through under Tesla's "we don't fight lawsuits that are justified" policy... But probably not.
Phantom braking, and the associated false collision warnings, false lane departure interventions, etc are the single most dangerous and distracting aspect of our Model Y.
Gathering accurate data on activations is going to be tough, and the case may hinge on that. But even if it raises visibility and gets more Tesla development team time and focus on the issue, I'll call it a win. In the race to get FSD and other advanced stuff done, the introduced bugs to basic features like cruise control and AEB has gone away beyond reasonable.
Phantom braking, and the associated false collision warnings, false lane departure interventions, etc are the single most dangerous and distracting aspect of our Model Y.
Gathering accurate data on activations is going to be tough, and the case may hinge on that. But even if it raises visibility and gets more Tesla development team time and focus on the issue, I'll call it a win. In the race to get FSD and other advanced stuff done, the introduced bugs to basic features like cruise control and AEB has gone away beyond reasonable.
TresLA
Member
Interesting. I suppose everyone is different. Intervening then re-engaging FSDb has become second nature to me, and I don’t feel particularly bothered by the frequency (doesn’t seem that bad to me). But, I also understand I’m probably not the norm. I’m also all for Tesla throwing resources at improving this.
I'm getting phantom braking on just TACC (no auto steer) and I'm getting false AEB / Lane departure interventions on fully manual driving.
I have never paid for FSD(b), and considering what I've seen of Tesla software so far, I probably won't be any time soon.
TresLA
Member
I’m not saying I don’t get phantom braking (although it’s nothing like the crazy slamming on the brakes I remember it used to be like), but I think it’s just something I instinctively react to now without thinking much about it so it doesn’t bother me much, or I can’t even really remember how often it happens anymore because it’s so “part of my normal driving routine”. Perhaps I’m just numb to it?
What does bother me is driving other vehicles without FSDb or at least basic AP (which I do often in rental cars for trips). Perhaps I’m too much of Tesla fanboy, but it feels much more dangerous driving without AP, even nicer cars with relatively advanced LKA systems.
Have a 2020 M3 LR and it’s been a while since I’ve had a dramatic phantom braking event (the kind where you go from 70mph to 30mph on the interstate). In fact I finally developed enough confidence to take my wife on a 1600 mile road trip (she would NOT tolerate phantom braking well).
I used FSBb for about 90% of the drive, which was nearly all interstate. There were a few slight random slowdowns, some of which I figured out (e.g. pedestrian in breakdown lane) and some that I couldn’t, but it was basically not a factor. Not sure my wife even noticed.
I’m not suggesting phantom braking isn’t a thing, I’ve experienced it many times, just not recently, at least nothing scary.
I used FSBb for about 90% of the drive, which was nearly all interstate. There were a few slight random slowdowns, some of which I figured out (e.g. pedestrian in breakdown lane) and some that I couldn’t, but it was basically not a factor. Not sure my wife even noticed.
I’m not suggesting phantom braking isn’t a thing, I’ve experienced it many times, just not recently, at least nothing scary.
In the past year Tesla has greatly decreased the number of phantom braking events for both of our cars (FSD and non FSD). I have one "magic" spot on a local street though where both my Teslas want to stop (not abruptly) for basically no reason in the middle of the road. It must be either some mapping issue I guess, but I am not sure.
I think it is outrageous that Elon hasn't answered your request within 24 business hours. I can recommend you a good lawyer who is looking for job now, his name is Rudy and he's from New York.
Yeah the phantom braking is TACC or autopilot on our '21 MYLR. Makes it totally unusable. Neighbor has a '21 MS and he hates it solely due to the phantom braking, so much so that he said he's probably going to sell it and just drive his Jeep Wrangler (which, IMO as a previous owner of five Wranglers, is even more of a piece of junk).
But the other day on my '17 MX 100D that has paid FSD from the previous owner, I was driving down a highway at 65, not on TACC or autosteer, and the car decided to drift ON ITS ON into the passing lane. I was surprised but let it go to see what would happen. It was literally changing lanes just like autosteer on navigation does (enhanced autopilot, essentially), but with no turn signal, and autosteer not activated. Once it got into the passing lane, it straightened out and then screamed at me something about lane departure and taking over (I didn't catch the alert but it was related to reprimanding me to take control due to lane departure).
The day before in almost the same location, the MX was on autopilot set to 68 mph, and as I passed a speed limit sign of 55, it changed to 55 mph, but didn't decelerate like "traditional" phantom braking in the MY. I don't have the autopilot set to adjust the speed based on signage, so my assumption is that this is part of the recent "recall" and they force the car to abide by the posted speed limits and the driver can opt to return to "speeding". No idea, but it wasn't like the random middle of nowhere I-70 in Kansas, no cars around, nice clear day (no mirages) that resulted in at least 10 phantom braking events in or MY last summer.
Then there are the WACKY forward collision notices when nothing is there. Roundabouts are notorious, as are entrance ramps to highways. I've even had it yell at me when merging as I am coming down the ramp and cars are on the highway lane. It occurs when the car is coming at an angle and sees the car(s) in the lane ahead of us, then it thinks that I'm heading right at the car, even though the exit ramp lane eventually curves and becomes parallel to the lane I'm trying to enter (with the "offending" car). I've set the alerts to "late" because I still want them if they are URGENT and imminent, but man my safety score takes a huge hit because even though the alerts are set to late, they still happen and are recorded against my score (and my Tesla insurance).
Furthermore, I've had situations in both the MY and MX where I'm driving on an interstate and a car is coming down an exit ramp above and to the right, and the cars flip out and either alert me to some collision warning or suggest moving into a different lane. The MX with FSD/autopilot enhanced will change on its own, typically cutting off some lunatic driving 90 in the passing lane. I've lost track of how many times I've had to decline the auto-lane change just to prevent some fool's road rage for entering the passing lane at 70 when he/she wants to cruise at 90+!
And let's not get me started on the safety score in general. Aggressive turning, hard braking and of course the "unsafe following" (impossible in a city to keep 3+ car lengths at 50 mph or faster thanks to cut-ins, merges, and just flow of traffic in general) are the bane of my existence, but the insurance is still 60% or more cheaper than USAA or any other well known insurer.
/soapbox
I live in the foothills outside of Denver, and I have used “normal” cruise control on all of my previous vehicles to maintain speed during the constant elevation changes. My 2023 MYP phantom braking has rendered the cruise control unusable, and I almost had a diesel pickup truck rear end me who was riding my butt going up the hill. He then sped around me and swerved aggressively into my lane thinking I intentionally hit my brakes. The phantom braking happens both randomly, but also at the same spots over and over again. This is regardless of the existence of other vehicles or time of day. I don’t use auto steer. This is maddening, and negatively colors my opinion on the vehicle. I just want the option for a standard cruise control.
I noticed that if you switch to TACC only mode, you can disable Automatic Emergency Braking, I guess that should take care of the phantom braking along with making your vehicle less safe. So either get rear ended with phantom braking or crash into someone with AEB disabled. Decisions, decisions... 
Yes. My 2023 Model 3 (current mileage 7,000) suddenly went into emergency braking on May 15, 2024 while in cruise mode at 72 mph. Fortunately, I do not use any of the AutoPilot stuff (do not trust it after trying for a few minutes) and was able to retain control. Also, fortunately, traffic was light and no one was tailgating me, although I am sure some folks to the rear had to slow down quickly. Reported to Tesla. Told to report to dealer. Did so. Dealer without looking at the vehicle indicated it did not find anything unusual in the telemetry, some glips are to be expected, and driver is responsible for retaining control. Dealer thereupon cancelled the appointment. I was shocked and was able to download the telemetry. None existed for the approximate time periods during which the incident occurred.
According to articles I dug up, drivers have reported more than 400,000 instances of phantom breaking to NHTSA. It is investigating approximately 700 plus reports from Tesla owners.
Post contact info when you are ready to go.
P.S. One can disable AEB (check on You Tube), but must re-disable every time the vehicle is turned back on.
According to articles I dug up, drivers have reported more than 400,000 instances of phantom breaking to NHTSA. It is investigating approximately 700 plus reports from Tesla owners.
Post contact info when you are ready to go.
P.S. One can disable AEB (check on You Tube), but must re-disable every time the vehicle is turned back on.
So, you "was able to download the telemetry". Can you tell me more about this part? I am also confused as you claim the AEB system misfire (which are very very rare based on very few reports existing here, for example), but the AEB is not really the AP or FSD.
for what it's worth: My 2019 Model 3 AWD did Dallas Ft.Worth - Taos / New Mexico back and forth over Memorial Day Weekend and the following observations:
- used TACC and AP
- same conditions as last year, plenty of heat mirages, same route including notorious Amarillo - Clayton / NM road
- *zero* hard PB events - unlike last year (last year we went from 80+ mph down to 50 mph within seconds so many times we stopped using TACC/AP)
- only a handful of very gentle "confused" slow downs - especially when passing a large truck (slow down very minor... maybe 5-10 mph, kinda like letting the foot of the accelerator)
- traffic sign detection was abysmal and much worse than last year; drove right by a 75 mph sign repeatedly and car displayed 55 mph ; drove into construction zones with yellow speed signs and car didn't pick those up at all. really annoying
based on this pleasant drive - it appears that the current software in my vehicle handles heat mirages much much better than last year.
- used TACC and AP
- same conditions as last year, plenty of heat mirages, same route including notorious Amarillo - Clayton / NM road
- *zero* hard PB events - unlike last year (last year we went from 80+ mph down to 50 mph within seconds so many times we stopped using TACC/AP)
- only a handful of very gentle "confused" slow downs - especially when passing a large truck (slow down very minor... maybe 5-10 mph, kinda like letting the foot of the accelerator)
- traffic sign detection was abysmal and much worse than last year; drove right by a 75 mph sign repeatedly and car displayed 55 mph ; drove into construction zones with yellow speed signs and car didn't pick those up at all. really annoying
based on this pleasant drive - it appears that the current software in my vehicle handles heat mirages much much better than last year.
was it a true AEB misfire? did the car go down to 0 mph from 72 mph?
i had a legit AEB event once when not paying attention and a car stopped in front of me and the vehicle with AEB *slammed* on the brakes extremely hard. Phantom braking is much much milder....
I have a similar experience. Interestingly, I only had a relatively hard PB (from 70 to 50 in a couple seconds) once in a newer Model Y about 2 years ago. Also PBs were generally noticeably deeper in 22 Model Y than in my older 19 Model 3. There were almost no PBs in the past year. It seems the traffic sign recognition accuracy dropped with newer FSD versions. Hopefully, it will go back soon when enough training data is processed.
Exactly, it is both annoying and leads to potential unsafe situations. The car gives warnings for no reason, brakes for no reason. It is annoying. It is unsafe.
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