Yellow/amber rear turn indicators?

[alseTrick]

The whole amber argument beings safer than all red seems silly, especially when based on a single photo taken between 'blinks'.

Yea, and some people think climate change is a hoax.

The NHTSA has a report showing a statistically significant reduction in crashes with use of Amber turn signals.

 

[TEG]

When I drive a busy freeway at night and I am in the carpool lane passing a bunch of cars to my right, if I see a blinking amber up ahead then I know to slow down because someone is about to enter the carpool lane.
When the right lane traffic is stop and go, that sea of blinking red lights makes it hard to know which are red left turn indicators and which are alternating brake lights.

 

[stopcrazypp]

They used yellow/amber on Model X... And outside of North America is appears they use yellow/amber on Model S too... Does Model 3 get the "cheap looking" red only due to cost cutting?

Not sure why some are relating no yellow/amber to 'cheap' or confusing. I've always hated the yellow/amber look and usually change my cars bulb colors or even take out the amber insert in the housing. I love the rear only red lights, and glad the yellow front blinker is only amber when on.

Also, @TEG, you're looking at a still image. The video where that image came from looks a lot less confusing when the blinker is on.

Now, I do wish they would have just made the brakelight the whole outer ring, just brighter when braking. Oh well, looks bright enough in that image above.

@MarkeR2002 seems to have it more correct. In the US, amber looks cheaper, and most of the expensive/premium cars prefer red turn signals (or at the very least it will not look amber until activated). I'm pretty sure it was the premium cars that started the trend and made amber look "outdated".

 

[David29]

The argument about red vs. amber rear turn signals goes back many years. I read up a bit on about automotive lighting many years ago, and as I recall, the safety advantage of amber rear turn signals was known in the 1970s, or possibly even earlier, and European cars have had amber rear turn signals for all the years that I have been owning cars (since the 1960s). If I recall correctly, there was a brief period (in the 1980s, I think) when NHTSA either required or encouraged US cars to have amber signals as well, and for awhile you did see them on American cars. Back in those days before LEDs, there was a clear economic advantage to the US manufacturers' practice to use red lenses for both brake and turn. They used the same 2-filament bulb for both functions, and one red lens. Meeting a requirement for amber signals would have required separate lenses, separate lamp mountings, and likely more wiring for amber, and the manufacturers squawked. I vaguely recall discussions about compromises to the visual designs of the rear end of the car. But of course it was really about costs. So the red rear turn signals prevailed. Meanwhile, some European (and possibly Asian) manufacturers sold their cars here with amber signals. Either they felt they were safer, or maybe it was just easier and cheaper to make the same tail lamp assembly and wiring for US and other markets. I used to drive Mercedes, and for a long time Mercedes cars sold here had amber rear lamps.
But once LEDs and other modern lamps came along, and the colors could be done without different lenses, I lost track and I do not know the details of the current arguments pro and con. But from what I see above, it sounds as if the Europeans are sticking with the safer amber rear turn signals and others (apparently including Tesla, at least on the Model S?) are going for economy and style rather than maximum safety.
(Actually, I can actually recall when the US front turn signals were white. They were changed to amber at some point in the 1960s, i think, possibly earlier.)

 

[TEG]

@MarkeR2002 seems to have it more correct. In the US, amber looks cheaper, and most of the expensive/premium cars prefer red turn signals (or at the very least it will not look amber until activated). I'm pretty sure it was the premium cars that started the trend and made amber look "outdated".

I associate blinking the brake light with old Detroit... Like on a Cadillac, not the high end European brands that Tesla seems to have in their sights.

I remember that the original Acura NSX started out with red turn indicators, and in later years (as it got more expensive) they switched to yellow.

Lexus:

Bentley:

 

[stopcrazypp]

I remember that the original Acura NSX started out with red turn indicators, and in later years (as it got more expensive) they switched to yellow.

I associate blinking the brake light with old Detroit... Like on a Cadillac, not the high end European brands that Tesla seems to have in their sights.

View attachment 229880

Well my family is mostly a Toyota family. From the Gen 1-3 Camry, there was a very obvious amber colored section of the taillights for turn signals. Starting in Gen 4 2002 model year, this got integrated in the clear part of the tailights (still visible because of amber bulb). Then in the facelift in 2005, it looks almost completely clear, and since then there have never been a amber tinted taillight Camry in the US market.

You can contrast the US market 2005 facelift Camry (very hard to see amber even straight on):

Here's the Asian market facelift Camry (see the amber colored section):

For the Mercedes E-class, the 1st generation had amber tint, and starting from second generation in 1995, they already didn't have the amber tint. The C-Class launched in 1994 never had an amber tint.
Mercedes-Benz E-Class - Wikipedia
Mercedes-Benz C-Class - Wikipedia

BMW has a similar story. Gen 1-3 5-series had amber tint. Starting Gen 4 in 1996 amber tint was gone.
BMW 5 Series - Wikipedia

There is a clear preference against amber lights in the USA (even when the bulb is actually amber, people prefer clear). The modern cars moved away from amber even when the bulb is actually amber. I associate amber tinted lights with old cheaper cars (the ones still running; I guess your perspective is different if you go back even further to cars in the 70s and 80s, but very few of those are running).

 

[TEG]

I don't mind if they hide the amber color when off. It is just a strong preference to have it flash amber when activated.

Another thought - the old filament bulbs used to fade in / fade out (as the filament heated and cooled), so you would generally see some amount of amber all the time when turn indicators were on, but newer LEDs are so "binary" with the off cycle being totally dark. So we have lost some of the duration of "on-ness" that the old filament bulbs offered. New LED signals are more harsh / jarring they way they jump on / off immediately instead of the old bulb fade-in fade-out. I am not saying I prefer bulbs... They waste power, and wear out quickly... Just noticed that attribute change as we switch over to LEDs. My Nissan LEAF came with LED brake lights and and old fashioned amber filament bulb for the turn indicators.

 

[TEG]

Wild...
Audi OLED concept:

Tesla wants to innovate and push the industry with many things like market leading self-driving, button-less dashboards, flush door handles, full glass roofs, etc, but they don't seem to be pushing any innovation in the indicator lighting arena.

 

[TEG]

A more conventional audi:

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't mind if they hide the amber color when off. It is just a strong preference to have it flash amber when activated.

Another thought - the old filament bulbs used to fade in / fade out (as the filament heated and cooled), so you would generally see some amount of amber all the time when turn indicators were on, but newer LEDs are so "binary" with the off cycle being totally dark. So we have lost some of the duration of "on-ness" that the old filament bulbs offered. New LED signals are more harsh / jarring they way they jump on / off immediately instead of the old bulb fade-in fade-out. I am not saying I prefer bulbs... They waste power, and wear out quickly... Just noticed that attribute change as we switch over to LEDs. My Nissan LEAF came with LED brake lights and and old fashioned amber filament bulb for the turn indicators.

I don't care either way what color they flash (I can't see it anyways when I'm driving and indicating). But I would prefer clear or red turn signals when they are off (when I actually can see the rear of the car), as I suspect the rest of the market does.

 

[TEG]

Sure, point wasn't about showing yellow plastic. It is about the color / size / shape / brightness / pattern of the light that comes out when it is active.

I posted some photos of cars with yellow plastic to show/prove that some high end cars do have yellow turn signals. Harder to prove that point with a bunch of pictures of clear housings (with yellow bulbs or LEDs buried behind.)

At this point, I think the designers / manufacturers just can't decide which way to go. It seems almost random from model to model and year to year. I can find many examples of different BMW 3 series with it done one way or another.

 

[strider]

A bit of a summary:

Tesla has different rear lighting designs outside of North America. They tend to have dedicated yellow/amber turn indicators outside of North America, but not within North America.
I do not understand why they do this. The non-North American behavior/design makes more sense to me.

Because the laws and regulations are different in different parts of the world. As I stated before, the US has a minimum surface area requirement for brake lights. The Model S may just meet the spec. In the X that extra low of lights of just that, EXTRA, so they can make it amber without reducing brake light surface area.

Here's an article from Canada:
Why you see red on the highway

Also car makers use them as a style thing and to differentiate model years/models. IIRC Porsche goes back and forth between amber and red on their cars every few years.

As I said in my other post, M3 is likely to have even smaller clusters than MS since it's a smaller car. In that case they well may need the whole thing to be red in order to meet the regulation. Could they add amber somewhere else? Of course they could. Why they didn't comes down to style, cost, etc.

 

[TEG]

Well my family is mostly a Toyota family.

Mine too... I have bought a number of new Toyota products over the years all with yellow turn indicators.
My son has the Lexus IS300 now... My wife has a hybrid Highlander. My daughter has taken over the (well Nissan) Leaf.
So now this is my daily driver until Model 3 shows up:

( Sort of interesting the way the bulb fade in / fade out makes the pattern shape animate. )

[ Insert "Supercharger" joke here ]

IS300:

Highlander (has LED brake lights):

LEAF (has LED brake lights):

Considering that the LEAF has LED headlights and LED brake lights I can only assume that the designers liked the fade-in fade-out of the old style bulbs for turn indicators.

 

[TEG]

...The US has a minimum surface area requirement for brake lights...
Here's an article from Canada:
Why you see red on the highway
...

Thanks for posting the article.
From the article:

...
Rules aside, are amber signals lights easier to see than red signal lights?
A 2009 report by the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) looking at data from 1981-2005 says amber signal lights were about 5 per cent more effective than red signal lights at preventing collisions.
Rules aside, Dexter personally thinks the red signal lights just look better – they blend in seamlessly with the red brake lights.
...

I hope Tesla picks safety over style here.

So what will Model 3 do in Europe? Will the same brake segment start flashing in amber (like the X does) instead of just making the red blink like we see on these RCs?

So what you are suggesting is that the X dual mode segments have the "other side" (non blinking) red LED be enough surface area for the brake requirement so they can make the indicator side switch to amber, but on Model 3 the other side's segment is too small to meet the brake size requirement so they leave the blinker red?
That is weird if the blinking red is still considered a brake light if it is flashing as a turn indicator. This sounds like some possibly warped interpretation of the regulations.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Thanks for posting the article.
From the article:


I hope Tesla picks safety over style here.

So what will Model 3 do in Europe? Will the same brake segment start flashing in amber (like the X does) instead of just making the red blink like we see on these RCs?

So what you are suggesting is that the X dual mode segments have the "other side" (non blinking) red LED be enough surface area for the brake requirement so they can make the indicator side switch to amber, but on Model 3 the other side's segment is too small to meet the brake size requirement so they leave the blinker red?
That is weird if the blinking red is still considered a brake light if it is flashing as a turn indicator. This sounds like some possibly warped interpretation of the regulations.

Here's the 2009 NHTSA report. It says explicitly the data set was too early (1981-2005) to include LEDs, and it only included 1 western state (Utah). So I do wonder about the distinction between:
1) amber tinted turn signals (as in old days, which this dataset problem has a lot of)
2) clear turn signals with amber lights
3) clear turn signals with red lights
4) red turn signals (discrete from brake lights)
5) red turn signal (same as brake lights)
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811115

 

[TEG]

 

[gregd]

One other consideration along the lines of visibility... For those 4.5% of the population who are color blind, an amber light is much easier to see than red, especially a deep red, even in the absence of fog.

 

[Xevex]

Wild...
Audi OLED concept:

Tesla wants to innovate and push the industry with many things like market leading self-driving, button-less dashboards, flush door handles, full glass roofs, etc, but they don't seem to be pushing any innovation in the indicator lighting arena.

Wow.. That would be distracting like hell.

 

[Runt8]

Wow.. That would be distracting like hell.

Exactly...whenever I see something like this it makes me glad there are government regulations regarding brake light designs.

 

[TEG]

Well, do we know that that crazy OLED thing would NOT meet the regulations?
Manufacturers need to use some common sense too...
I doubt they were serious about releasing it. I think they were just showing off.