Why wasn't Tesla part of the 100 Tech Companies Signing against the Travel Ban?

[Tam]

Best for companies to stay out of politics unless it DIRECTLY affects their business.

So how do you explain that Elon Musk is defending those who are being banned from US entry?

Business depends on customers.

Customers are people.

Some business think they don't need to do business to a certain people, certain nationalities so they don't object to President Trump's travel ban Executive Order.

Others think more globally: people are social beings.

If they are don't have enough money to afford a Tesla, they can dream.

So with their dream, they can evangelize.

And with the zeal, they would talk to their friends and their teachers, lawyers, doctors... who in turn might be persuaded to buy a Tesla.

The world is interconnected.

You can take that advantage, speak up for it, fight for it or you can isolate yourself.

 

[bonnie]

Good response.

ps. That giant truck you used to drive... Awesome.

Fifty ton end dump, blade, paddle wheel scraper, dozer, front end loader, etc. I moved into the warehouse & then ran purchasing after being lead operator when the mine went underground. I helped collar the underground mine & went down plenty of times, but couldn't stand the idea of working down there for 10 hours a day (we worked four 10 hour shifts, 3 days off).

That was a lifetime ago, but it left me with a greater understanding another part of life I might not ever have known. Plus a ton of good stories.

 

[Electroman]

Proving some relief, even if they don't all get out, but some do, to that bastion of freedom, the US (or Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.) is a way to prevent terror, at least in my view

True. That can all be done by not bringing terror to our shores. Oh I am sure the current set of migrants are all lilly white, honest, tax paying citizens. It is the next generation that I am concerned about. It is the ideology they bring and inculcate to their young that I am concerned about. Lets learn from Britain, France and other European countries. Most of the trouble makers are 2nd generation immigrants from these same countries and more, with the common fabric of radical Islam.

There is a vast difference between the 2nd generation immigrants from India, China, Philippines and those from the middle east.

This is the time you take control before we degenerate into Europe.

 

[mmd]

He's clearly spoken out against the ban. So you're safe, you don't need to be disgusted anymore.

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Well, right after that, Elon tweeted this. He obviously thought the order was legit, which is not, It was deemed unconstitutional by the Judges. It is very clear from this tweet that he is legitimizing it. He seems to be equivocating at times.

Also notable, that most 911 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, which wasn't part of the ban due to Trump's business connections. And banning the green card holders is blatant discrimination. GC holders already went through background checks etc.

 

[Tam]

...degenerate into Europe.

The vision is quite dark just like the Inauguration speech "American carnage".

There are much good in the world even in hopelessness.

Europe is thriving and Germany is still a tough competitor among the world.

Euro money is still more valuable than US dollar. 1 Euro = US$1.08

 

[McRat]

The vision is quite dark just like the Inauguration speech "American carnage".

There are much good in the world even in hopelessness.

Europe is thriving and Germany is still a tough competitor among the world.

Euro money is still more valuable than US dollar. 1 Euro = US$1.08

Cough... Really? I was in Europe just a couple summers ago, and it was like $1.40 USD per Euro. 2015? I think.

 

[bonnie]

Well, right after that, Elon tweeted this. He obviously thought the order was legit, which is not, It was deemed unconstitutional by the Judges. It is very clear from this tweet that he is legitimizing it. He seems to be equivocating at times.

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Also notable, that most 911 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, which wasn't part of the ban due to Trump's business connections. And banning the green card holders is blatant discrimination.

No, he didn't 'obviously think the order was legit'. He was asking for fact-based responses. Big difference. He also pushed to have a discussion about the ban onto the agenda. Why would you interpret that tweet in such a negative manner?

I'm surely not supporting Trump - no need to lecture me about the unconstitutionality of the order. I'm also glad Elon is operating the way he is. It's a tight rope & I have zero doubt that if he believes he cannot positively influence Trump, he'll walk.

 

[Carl]

Why and how do these 7 countries really matter for the tech industry? We are not going to lose anything if folks cannot travel from these countries and even if Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are extended to that list. There will be some collateral damage and some deserving folks might be impacted, but that is true for any decision at this scale.

You need to pick and choose your fights. These countries are not worth our time. They are extremist US hating hell holes. Honestly I wish they fall of the maps.

Well if you honestly wish that the solution involve having a few hundreds of million people disappear from earth, than I'm glad the U.S. elected such a more moderate, human-rights abiding and compassionate president.

 

[McRat]

If my reading is correct, the 10 largest H1b employers in the US hire about 60% bachelor's degrees and 40% master's or higher, with job experience, at a median wage of $63k a year.

They are nearly all hired to do IT work in these 10 companies. An experienced IT professional with a degree in the US won't normally work for that. My brother was about $125k/yr (RIP).

No wonder there is such a massive uproar from labor intensive tech companies.

Folk can be so gullible. Grab your pitchforks and torches and save Microsoft from hiring your neighbors! How DARE they!!??

 

[apples1]

True. That can all be done by not bringing terror to our shores. Oh I am sure the current set of migrants are all lilly white, honest, tax paying citizens. It is the next generation that I am concerned about. It is the ideology they bring and inculcate to their young that I am concerned about. Lets learn from Britain, France and other European countries. Most of the trouble makers are 2nd generation immigrants from these same countries and more, with the common fabric of radical Islam.

There is a vast difference between the 2nd generation immigrants from India, China, Philippines and those from the middle east.

This is the time you take control before we degenerate into Europe.

Ok thanks for making your racism overt. You my friend, due to your brown looking skin, will get more hate as compared to that white looking second generation Syrian as Trump's pervasive racism spreads across America. It's like those stupid people voting for Trump when they're on Obamacare.

Oh and for those who asked: I supported Tesla by being a Model S owner and a stock owner.

 

[Canuck]

This is the time you take control before we degenerate into Europe.

I've travelled extensively through Europe and the US. When I spent a couple months in Europe last summer, there were refugee families begging and sleeping on mattresses in the streets. Europe took too many, too fast. I also just avoided the Nice terror attack by a couple of weeks. We stayed at a hotel overlooking the promenade and I walked it for three nights with my family to and from our hotel. So that terrorist truck attack along the promenade that happened shortly after I left really hit home for me.

Having said that, you seem to have a very different view of Europe than I do. Europe doesn't have a vast ocean between its countries and the middle east as we do. Despite this fact, there are many places in the States that I do not feel safe and where I will not venture out at night but I didn't feel that way in much of Europe. Canada takes far more refugees from the middle east than the US, yet I feel safe pretty much everywhere.

So for me, it's not about "degenerating" into Europe. We need to learn from Europe, and not take too many too fast, and to assimilate them properly, and make them feel welcome and part of society. We need to win the war of ideas, as well as the war on terrorism. A smart refugee plan, that is constitutionally sound, is part of the strategy in winning the war of ideas. I find that many people in the US have a false view of the rest of the world, and that results from not travelling around the world, at least in my view.

 

[deonb]

Grab your pitchforks and torches and save Microsoft from hiring your neighbors! How DARE they!!??

Do not hold Microsoft/Apple/Google/Amazon etc. over the same barrel as Infosys & Tata. It's not nearly the same thing.

I was at Microsoft. I was recruiting people. On H1B if needed.

We had MANY positions that were open for years and years on end. But if you need someone senior with experience shipping e.g. a C++ compiler, you're recruiting from a pool of maybe 100 people worldwide. If you can be ok with any compiler experience and willing to train for a few years, the pool to recruit from grows to maybe a 1000. Worldwide.

It's a close-knit community where everybody knows everybody else. With that kind of job, we contact you - we don't wait for you to apply. IF we are so lucky to find someone, we don't care where they are from. This is so NOT about saving money - the H1B process cost & relocation package runs around $80'000. And annual packages for seniors starts at 300k. (Oh, and by the way, Microsoft pays in published salary bands - you can't pay an H1B less - they would know immediately if they're outside the band).

Do you think we wouldn't try EVERYTHING possible to recruit locally? To pay your magical "63k" per year medium wage? The local talent simply doesn't exist. Not for any amount of money. Of course we hire juniors and train them, but it takes 10 years to get someone up into a senior position.

The local talent situation is dire. Many Microsoft Engineers also offer their time for free to lecture at STEM schools 2 or 3 times a week - so much so that there is a waiting list for volunteers. Microsoft gives you the time off to do that.

I'm not at Microsoft anymore, but I'm in a similar situation again where we are interview people on a daily basis. Again with positions open for years on end. And again we can't find anybody locally who even knows enough to fake their way through the first 5 minutes of an interview. Oh, we have one H1B - guess what - he's our highest paid employee apart from the partners/founders.

It's so frustrating trying to recruit people that I can cry. So when someone says that recruiting H1B's in a place like Silicon Valley or Seattle is a cost savings exercise, I feel like strangling them.

 

[Canuck]

It's so frustrating trying to recruit people that I can cry. So when someone says that recruiting H1B's in a place like Silicon Valley or Seattle is a cost savings exercise, I feel like strangling them.

You're not alone. Many farmers have the same issue, although they are seeking an entirely different class of workers:

An immigration policy focused on closing the border would shift up to 61 percent of U.S. fruit production to other countries due to domestic labor shortages, sending jobs to Mexico and other nearby competitors, according to a 2014 study commissioned by the American Farm Bureau Federation, the largest U.S. farmer group.

And before this group gets called left wing...

The agriculture industry is the 10th-biggest donor to political campaigns, ahead of the transportation and defense industries and just behind organized labor, according to the Center for Responsive Politics in Washington. Agribusiness gives three-quarters of its donations to Republicans, according to the group.

 

[bonnie]

Do not hold Microsoft/Apple/Google/Amazon etc. over the same barrel as Infosys & Tata. It's not nearly the same thing.

I was at Microsoft. I was recruiting people. On H1B if needed.

We had MANY positions that were open for years and years on end. But if you need someone senior with experience shipping e.g. a C++ compiler, you're recruiting from a pool of maybe 100 people worldwide. If you can be ok with any compiler experience and willing to train for a few years, the pool to recruit from grows to maybe a 1000. Worldwide.

It's a close-knit community where everybody knows everybody else. With that kind of job, we contact you - we don't wait for you to apply. IF we are so lucky to find someone, we don't care where they are from. This is so NOT about saving money - the H1B process cost & relocation package runs around $80'000. And annual packages for seniors starts at 300k. (Oh, and by the way, Microsoft pays in published salary bands - you can't pay an H1B less - they would know immediately if they're outside the band).

Do you think we wouldn't try EVERYTHING possible to recruit locally? To pay your magical "63k" per year medium wage? The local talent simply doesn't exist. Not for any amount of money. Of course we hire juniors and train them, but it takes 10 years to get someone up into a senior position.

The local talent situation is dire. Many Microsoft Engineers also offer their time for free to lecture at STEM schools 2 or 3 times a week - so much so that there is a waiting list for volunteers. Microsoft gives you the time off to do that.

I'm not at Microsoft anymore, but I'm in a similar situation again where we are interview people on a daily basis. Again with positions open for years on end. And again we can't find anybody locally who even knows enough to fake their way through the first 5 minutes of an interview. Oh, we have one H1B - guess what - he's our highest paid employee apart from the partners/founders.

It's so frustrating trying to recruit people that I can cry. So when someone says that recruiting H1B's in a place like Silicon Valley or Seattle is a cost savings exercise, I feel like strangling them.

Ditto with Intel. Everything you say there. And it wasn't all IT positions. It was a wide variety of engineering positions.

 

[diesel]

Do not hold Microsoft/Apple/Google/Amazon etc. over the same barrel as Infosys & Tata. It's not nearly the same thing.

I was at Microsoft. I was recruiting people. On H1B if needed.

We had MANY positions that were open for years and years on end. But if you need someone senior with experience shipping e.g. a C++ compiler, you're recruiting from a pool of maybe 100 people worldwide. If you can be ok with any compiler experience and willing to train for a few years, the pool to recruit from grows to maybe a 1000. Worldwide.

It's a close-knit community where everybody knows everybody else. With that kind of job, we contact you - we don't wait for you to apply. IF we are so lucky to find someone, we don't care where they are from. This is so NOT about saving money - the H1B process cost & relocation package runs around $80'000. And annual packages for seniors starts at 300k. (Oh, and by the way, Microsoft pays in published salary bands - you can't pay an H1B less - they would know immediately if they're outside the band).

Do you think we wouldn't try EVERYTHING possible to recruit locally? To pay your magical "63k" per year medium wage? The local talent simply doesn't exist. Not for any amount of money. Of course we hire juniors and train them, but it takes 10 years to get someone up into a senior position.

The local talent situation is dire. Many Microsoft Engineers also offer their time for free to lecture at STEM schools 2 or 3 times a week - so much so that there is a waiting list for volunteers. Microsoft gives you the time off to do that.

I'm not at Microsoft anymore, but I'm in a similar situation again where we are interview people on a daily basis. Again with positions open for years on end. And again we can't find anybody locally who even knows enough to fake their way through the first 5 minutes of an interview. Oh, we have one H1B - guess what - he's our highest paid employee apart from the partners/founders.

It's so frustrating trying to recruit people that I can cry. So when someone says that recruiting H1B's in a place like Silicon Valley or Seattle is a cost savings exercise, I feel like strangling them.

Your example is the intended use of the H1B programme. Now, lets be honest, too many companies use H1B for the wrong reasons - by and large there are a few large companies abusing the system to lower wages of sys admins and other lower order roles. We all know who they are.

 

[Skotty]

Why wasn't Tesla part of the 100 Tech Companies Signing against the travel Ban?

Is Elon Musk a closet supporter of Donald Trump? If he is, I'm disgusted and removing all of my support for the company.

Not every company and CEO against the policies in question are in that group. It's unknown whether Tesla and Elon even knew about it before it hit the news. Also, Elon has already made his objections known in the Presidential Advisory Forum. And, as I have posted in other social circles, I will repeat here for consideration:

-------------

Regarding Elon Musk -- In December 2016, Elon agreed to join the Presidential Advisory Forum for the Trump administration. He was one of many business leaders who joined to provide business-oriented feedback to the administration.

There has been some backlash regarding Elon's participation in this forum due to the mission of Elon and his companies seemingly being at extreme odds with the agenda of the Trump administration. Towards this, Elon had the following commentary: "I understand the perspective of those who object to my attending this meeting, but I believe at this time that engaging on critical issues will on balance serve the greater good." Elon has also remained critical of the immigration ban and the administration's position on climate change, and he has made it a priority to discuss these topics at the forum meetings. Still, some people feel Elon will be entirely ignored and will only help legitimize an administration that should not be legitimized.

As an opponent of the Trump administration but a long time fan and investor in Elon and the mission of his companies, some might be curious as to my opinion on the matter. It is my opinion that Elon's heart is in the right place and his motivations are honorable. I also believe it is unclear whether his participation in the forum will ultimately be a net positive or negative. I therefore take the position, and recommend this position to others, to neither endorse nor denounce his participation in the Presidential Advisory Forum. I believe Elon will adjust and correct his stance as needed dependent on how events continue to unfold, and people should withhold any hard judgments for or against Elon at this time.

 

[deonb]

Your example is the intended use of the H1B programme. Now, lets be honest, too many companies use H1B for the wrong reasons - by and large there are a few large companies abusing the system to lower wages of sys admins and other lower order roles. We all know who they are.

Absolutely - that's why I started of saying: "Do not hold Microsoft/Apple/Google/Amazon etc. over the same barrel as Infosys & Tata".

(McRat was doing exactly that.)

 

[Electroman]

I worked briefly for one of those Indian IT companies, and I was in the role to interview and recommend for hiring. And I can tell you the shenanigans these companies do is sometimes nauseating.

- Bring in someone in B1 visa and then make them work on revenue projects. A big no no. That was clamped down a couple of years ago and that practice completely stopped.

- Rampantly inflate the designations so that you can bring them in L1 visa

The H1B visa though has to go through a process of advertising the position and the salary band. But then I was never convinced that we can't find a local talent - for the kind of work we were hiring for. None of these are anywhere close to the complexity of writing compilers or designing circuits. The problem was many qualified candidates choose not to apply, as they did not see a big future working for these Indian IT outfits.

 

[hockeythug]

Well, that's easy: Steve Jobs' father was a Syrian migrant to the U.S.

But more importantly, you appear to have a very skewed perspective of these countries. It's a mistake to lump all the people of any given national origin like that. That's seriously messed up. These are people like people from anywhere else and you'll find all sorts of individuals in this group. If you're so inclined, you can read about all sorts of doctors, scientists, well, heck... create a list of professions that you have some respect for and yes, you'll find that they come from these countries that you've learned to despise. With the current upheaval from Trump's immigration ban, I've certainly been seeing more personal stories about such individuals lately. I guess it depends on where you get your news from though.

Biological "father" who wanted nothing to do with him. Lets stop with the meme that the nation of Syria raised Steve and played an instrumental part in the creation of Apple Computers.

 

[Canuck]

Biological "father" who wanted nothing to do with him. Lets stop with the meme that the nation of Syria raised Steve and played an instrumental part in the creation of Apple Computers.

If Syria didn't exist would Steve Jobs exist? If Steve Jobs did not exist would Apple exist? If the answer is "no" that sounds somewhat instrumental to me, at least according to the definition of "instrumental."

But I agree with your main point. I don't care if it's the next Steve Jobs, or the kid at the corner store who bags my groceries who gets thoroughly vetted and is allowed to immigrate. We don't need shining examples to defend refugee programs, just like we shouldn't tie one refugee terrorist to all other refugees.