What's the likelihood we will see Speed Limit Sign recognition?

[PhilDavid]

Given AP2 runs a lowered frame rate and cropped camera images due to processing limits, it seems reasonable that they would not reduce available processing capability further by including speed limit NN code.
HW3 has much more capability, but speed limit detection is not a gating feature for FSD.

I respectfully disagree. Around where I live speed limits change often and when a 45mph road becomes 35 mph, and FSD drives at 45 mph or the +5offset I've set, then we are doing 50mph on a stretch that is actually 35 mph after the limit change.

And yes, we can argue the driver is responsible, etc., etc., but apart from eventual actual FSD, what FSD features offer now is to reduce the workload for the driver. Reliably knowing the last posted speed limit the car saw would be a more useful FSD feature for me than the current implementation of stop signs and traffic signals.

Since FSD inherently uses the speed limit as a basis for setting the speed, I'm inclined to believe that sooner or later they will really need to figure out a way to offer speed limit sign recognition.

Also, I know Tesla and MobileEye had a not so pleasant falling out but the good news is this is no longer between Tesla and MobileEye but Tesla and Intel. Hopefully they can work something out to roll this feature out. I'm thinking of a nice and tidy cross licensing agreement for each other's patents.

The nuclear option would be to move to quash this BS speed limit sign recognition patent altogether. MobileEye/Intel can't be allowed to essentially collect a tax for any vehicle that reads speed limits as required by law.

 

[mongo]

I respectfully disagree. Around where I live speed limits change often and when a 45mph road becomes 35 mph, and FSD drives at 45 mph or the +5offset I've set, then we are doing 05mph on a stretch that is actually 35 mph after the limit change.

And yes, we can argue the driver is responsible, etc., etc., but apart from eventual actual FSD, what FSD features offer now is to reduce the workload for the driver. Reliably knowing the last posted speed limit the car saw would be a more useful FSD feature for me than the current implementation of stop signs and traffic signals.

Since FSD inherently uses the speed limit as a basis for setting the speed, I'm inclined to believe that sooner or later they will really need to figure out a way to offer speed limit sign recognition.

Also, I know Tesla and MobileEye had a not so pleasant falling out but the good news is this is no longer between Tesla and MobileEye but Tesla and Intel. Hopefully they can work something out to roll this feature out. I'm thinking of a nice and tidy cross licensing agreement for each other's patents.

The nuclear option would be to move to quash this BS speed limit sign recognition patent altogether. MobileEye/Intel can't be allowed to essentially collect a tax for any vehicle that reads speed limits as required by law.

Yeah, I realized I should have said 'major gating function'. My thought was that sign reading is a fairly proven problem vs path/ object prediction and map based limits provide a large chunk of the functionality in the interim. Yes, it is not ideal but having it in the SW now would make the rest of the development more difficult and take developer resources from the other driving features.

 

[Neppaaja]

Don't know how the patent is written but another workaround could be to let Tesla autopilot to read speed limit signs and then ask driver's confirmation to change the speed accordingly.

 

[bob_p]

Here's the patent.

This is an example of a patent on something that is pretty obvious - and could be implemented multiple ways.

Google and Apple fought for years on similar patents on basic concepts - and Tesla is now in a similar situation with Mobileye - who has a patent on the basic idea of using cameras and a computer to detect speed limits, not a patent protecting Mobileye's specific solution.

Since we don't have speed limit sign recognition in AP today, we can assume Tesla's attorneys have carefully reviewed the patent and couldn't find any loopholes that would allow Tesla to work around the patent.

Or... Tesla may be on a path to work around the patent already.

Vehicles are currently controlled by speed limit data provided by Tesla's server, using "fleet learning" based on observed speed. If the AP system detected a speed limit sign and the speed doesn't match the speed limit database value, the difference could be reported back to the server, updating the database - which would then be accurate for the next vehicle driving through that area. While that isn't as good as what the Mobileye patent covers - it would be a huge improvement over what we have today, which has many areas with incorrect or missing speed limits - which aren't updated for months (or years).

 

[BigNick]

I am going to patent the biological process of converting oxygen into carbon dioxide and eeeveryone will pay me royalties!

Now imagine Montgomery Burns saying it.

 

[Battpower]

Vehicles are currently controlled by speed limit data provided by Tesla's server, using "fleet learning" based on observed speed.

That may be true in some places but in UK & France I have seen no evidence when driving the car.

In fact, I have seen far more evidence of the car blindly following map sourced speed limits regardless of limits in place. Also, limits through construction can have been removed months earlier but the car still indicates a low speed.

Often messes up between 50, 60 and 70 mph zones in UK.

 

[Battpower]

Does your windscreen have a camera at the very top? Can you post us a photo? I bet you have a MobileEye camera as they have been awarded this questionable software patent.

Sorry it took so long to post the pic and not very good picture!

 

[bob_p]

Tesla's current implementation is poor in multiple places in our area - with missing or incorrect speed limits, causing the vehicle to unnecessarily slow down, which is a potential safety issue when that happens in the middle of high speed traffic.

If Tesla could use speed limit recognition in the vehicles to update the server's speed limit database, that would help considerably. Because right now, once the speed limit database has mistakes, it seems to take months or years to get those fixed.

 

[Battpower]

Tesla's current implementation is poor in multiple places in our area - with missing or incorrect speed limits, causing the vehicle to unnecessarily slow down, which is a potential safety issue when that happens in the middle of high speed traffic.

If Tesla could use speed limit recognition in the vehicles to update the server's speed limit database, that would help considerably. Because right now, once the speed limit database has mistakes, it seems to take months or years to get those fixed.

You would think that would be a very useful way of getting around patents while also allowing fleet learning to filter out bogus / misleading street signs.

I have had problems where street speed signs are defaced, broken, missing or incorrect due to confusion with adjacent streets. Requiring say 50 positive acknowledgements or negative feedbacks to change or at least flag possible need to change map speed data would be far better / safer than responding 1st time to an incorrect read.

 

[bob_p]

With the new traffic sign/light recognition, the display provides warning 500 feet prior to an upcoming intersection that the vehicle will begin slowing to a stop (even if the light is green).

This gives the driver time to override this by tapping on the AP control handle or tapping on the accelerator.

CAN WE PLEASE GET THIS FOR AUTOMATIC SPEED CHANGES?

It would help considerably if the display would provide warning on upcoming automatic speed changes, providing enough time for the driver to override the change and avoid starting to slow and then quickly accelerating the car manually back to the desired (and correct) speed.

 

[PhilDavid]

I unfortunately had to disable stop sign and traffic light control because the speed limit database is so out of wack where I live.

Worst of all, when the speed limit determined by the car is wrong, it creates a traffic and safety hazard because you can;t manually override the limit. Where I live, the speed of traffic is about 7mph over the limit and if you drive the speed limit or lower you are going to get run over, tailgated, or cut of creating so much stress.

Especially with Autopilot now driving surface streets, they need to figure out some way to read speed limits.

At the least, they should allow the driver to override the speed limit within 10mph of what the car thinks is the speed limit.

 

[bob_p]

NOTE that when FSD is approved for use, part of the validation will be verification that the vehicle will strictly adhere to all traffic laws - which means the vehicle will do things that human drivers rarely do - coming to a complete stop at intersections and driving at or below the posted speed limit.

Don't see how FSD systems will be approved for operations that don't obey the traffic laws. Will FSD pull over when requested by the police? [Will FSD obey hand or whistle signals from first responders?] And if FSD is cited for traffic violations - who will be responsible - the owner, the person who engaged FSD, or the FSD manufacturer?

Got sidetracked...

Agree with PhilDavid - the speed management software needs work. The speed limit database has numerous errors. And there isn't any way to disable that feature and run TACC or NOAP without the speed changes.

It could help if Tesla would at least provide the same notification that's done for upcoming traffic intersections, providing a warning in advance of the speed change, so the driver could override the change.

Until then, at least on the roads where there are frequent speed limit mistakes, will be driving manually more often rather than risk slowing down quickly and getting rear-ended.

 

[PhilDavid]

NOTE that when FSD is approved for use, part of the validation will be verification that the vehicle will strictly adhere to all traffic laws - which means the vehicle will do things that human drivers rarely do - coming to a complete stop at intersections and driving at or below the posted speed limit.

Don't see how FSD systems will be approved for operations that don't obey the traffic laws. Will FSD pull over when requested by the police? [Will FSD obey hand or whistle signals from first responders?] And if FSD is cited for traffic violations - who will be responsible - the owner, the person who engaged FSD, or the FSD manufacturer?

Got sidetracked...

Agree with PhilDavid - the speed management software needs work. The speed limit database has numerous errors. And there isn't any way to disable that feature and run TACC or NOAP without the speed changes.

It could help if Tesla would at least provide the same notification that's done for upcoming traffic intersections, providing a warning in advance of the speed change, so the driver could override the change.

Until then, at least on the roads where there are frequent speed limit mistakes, will be driving manually more often rather than risk slowing down quickly and getting rear-ended.

You make a lot of good points but I think it matters who is RESPONSIBLE for the driving.

If it is a Tesla Taxi in FSD mode, sure follow all the rules however Tesla sees fit, as they are the responsible party.

However when I am driving, and I am responsible for the car, I need to be able to set the speed limit I want, as I'm ultimately responsible for my own decisions as I always have been. This does not mean you set the limit to 25 over the limit on city streets.

However in many cities, you are a danger to yourself and others if you always drive the speed limit and this situation is exacerbated when the car's GPS database is wrong and ends up driving 10 MPH BELOW the limit with no way to increase that manually.

A shame because I'd love to use the stop sign and traffic light control feature but I can't use it even with the limited traffic we have with it it not reading speed limit signs and locking you out of setting the speed limit manually.

 

[Battpower]

It is impossible for FSD to intentionally drive at speed limit + X just because that's what everyone else does.

A couple of months back I got caught by a speed camera (UK) in the dark on unfamiliar roads doing 36 mph just coming off a roundabout. Cost me £100 and just avoided points on my license. The speed limit is the limit, or they have to set a special limit for Self Driving cars.

However, there should be nothing stopping you from hitting the accelerator harder if you want to go over the limit.

BTW, I totally agree that speed limits have to be acted on safely of course. Just don't see how they can be officially ignored by FSD.

 

[PhilDavid]

It is impossible for FSD to intentionally drive at speed limit + X just because that's what everyone else does.

A couple of months back I got caught by a speed camera (UK) in the dark on unfamiliar roads doing 36 mph just coming off a roundabout. Cost me £100 and just avoided points on my license. The speed limit is the limit, or they have to set a special limit for Self Driving cars.

However, there should be nothing stopping you from hitting the accelerator harder if you want to go over the limit.

BTW, I totally agree that speed limits have to be acted on safely of course. Just don't see how they can be officially ignored by FSD.

The simple answer is I don't care. I am responsible for the speed I chose along with all that responsibility entails.

When I am using FSD in my car, under my direction, I set the speed.

We already get to set the speed for NOA and that is essentially a part of FSD. This is really no different.

There is no way I'm going to put my safety in jeopardy by stubbornly driving the speed limit and be cut off left and right and tailgated...

 

[M3BlueGeorgia]

It is impossible for FSD to intentionally drive at speed limit + X just because that's what everyone else does.

A couple of months back I got caught by a speed camera (UK) in the dark on unfamiliar roads doing 36 mph just coming off a roundabout. Cost me £100 and just avoided points on my license. The speed limit is the limit, or they have to set a special limit for Self Driving cars.

However, there should be nothing stopping you from hitting the accelerator harder if you want to go over the limit.

BTW, I totally agree that speed limits have to be acted on safely of course. Just don't see how they can be officially ignored by FSD.

They can't be ignored, because although different jurisdictions have different rules for how you fast you can go relative to the posted limits, the rules exist.

Yes, from driving in the UK, that excess speed is pretty low, but here in GA its higher. Typically you'll be ignored by police anything up to 9mph over the limit, but there's a 85 mph rule, so on a 70 mph Freeway you'll be ignored at up to 79 mph, might get pulled over between 80 and 84 mph, but get the book thrown at you at 85 mph or higher.

Yes, and no speed cameras in this State or any around us. They make very good rifle targets.

 

[ucmndd]

The simple answer is I don't care. I am responsible for the speed I chose along with all that responsibility entails.

When I am using FSD in my car, under my direction, I set the speed.

We already get to set the speed for NOA and that is essentially a part of FSD. This is really no different.

There is no way I'm going to put my safety in jeopardy by stubbornly driving the speed limit and be cut off left and right and tailgated...

Doesn’t sound like FSD is for you.

I can’t help but laugh at the idea of “refusing to put your safety in jeopardy” by, of all things, driving the speed limit - while also stubbornly insisting on the complete ability to tell the car to drive at any speed you deem worthy while it’s being controlled by super sketchy less-than-beta quality “self driving” software.

Come on. This has nothing to do with safety. You’re not fooling anybody.

 

[brkaus]

They can't be ignored, because although different jurisdictions have different rules for how you fast you can go relative to the posted limits, the rules exist.

Yes, from driving in the UK, that excess speed is pretty low, but here in GA its higher. Typically you'll be ignored by police anything up to 9mph over the limit, but there's a 85 mph rule, so on a 70 mph Freeway you'll be ignored at up to 79 mph, might get pulled over between 80 and 84 mph, but get the book thrown at you at 85 mph or higher.

Yes, and no speed cameras in this State or any around us. They make very good rifle targets.

But the "rules" are guidelines. Once (if?) Tesla takes full responsibility for a self driving car it's going to be pretty easy to pick off lots of them going 5mph over the limit and sending the tickets in the mail.

 

[PhilDavid]

Doesn’t sound like FSD is for you.

I can’t help but laugh at the idea of “refusing to put your safety in jeopardy” by, of all things, driving the speed limit - while also stubbornly insisting on the complete ability to tell the car to drive at any speed you deem worthy while it’s being controlled by super sketchy less-than-beta quality “self driving” software.

Come on. This has nothing to do with safety. You’re not fooling anybody.

I'd like to invite you to come to the Philly area. Drive the speed limit for just a few days and let us know how that worked out for you

Seriously though NOA already allows the driver to set the desired speed while a FSD feature is in operation so let's not pretend like being able to set the desired speed limit is some philosophical/ethical/legal issue as that ability is already available for a FSD feature.

What makes the stop sign and stop light control so unusable is not necessarily being limited to the speed limit but the fact that some of the GPS speed limits used by the system are wrong and you are not able to override the incorrect speed limit to the actual higher limit.

Hence it would be awesome to see speed limit recognition implemented one day... I bet they have already implemented this feature but they need to figure out a way to address the BS MobileEye/Intel patent.

 

[Battpower]

This will be an interesting aspect of implementing FSD. At the moment, it is clear that responsibility and liability rests 100% with the driver. There are many times where the driver 'bends' the rules if not openly flouting them, and this is usually acceptable based on it being OK as long as nothing goes wrong & / or you aren't caught doing it.

But laws and rules can't be flexible otherwise they become guidelines.

It is very different (is it?) to have people break rules at their own individual risk compared with a corporate body designing every car to break the law by design.

While FSD is being developed and each driver is still ultimately responsible (needing their own insurance cover), like any other driver they can take whatever risks they deem acceptable, but once you have autonomous cars driving unaided then by definition 'the driver is the car' so responsibility and liability must rest with the car manufacturer or at least blanket non-individual insurance scheme.

Once FSD has demonstrated it is safer than conventional cars then I expect there would be a good argument (on freeways / motorways at least) to set a higher speed limit for FSD.

By this point in FSD evolution there will doubtless be many other core road navigation and liability issues that will have to be handled, probably in a similar catagory.

On congested (European) city streets there are often cars parked on part of the carriageway forcing you to cross into oncoming traffic. There could be debris blown into the road in bad weather, broken down vehicles, very slow moving traffic, horses, cyclists, garbage trucks...... all requiring behaviour beyond the 'safe & strictly rule following' FSD.

Back to the issue of speed specifically, I think there will be a strong case for real time and dynamically updating limits like UK Smart Motorways with a secure transponder sending speed limit data electronically which would include responding to traffic volume, accidents, weather and maybe type of vehicle too.

Similar local 'environment to vehicle' and 'vehicle to vehicle' will eventually prove necessary to safely navigate conjested areas, especially when an autonomous vehicle needs to contravene road markings and otherwise effectively take control of a small section of road for a particular situation like parking or passing parked / very slow vehicles.