What do you think of the Tesla lawsuit regarding EPA mileage?

[GBMaryland]

I'm not following. How can losses be collected?

The process of charging the battery most likely causes it to heat up. The cooling system in the car is used to cool or heat. The coolant that is cycled through the battery. If the battery heats up when system is running coolant through the battery the heat from the coolant can be used to heat the car.

I don’t exactly remember how the newer Tesla’s are configured with a piezoelectric system that I believe they use, versus the old system of my model three, which had a radiator as opposed to a multiple heat pumps of the current system.

 

[SO16]

This video explains how EPA rating is calculated for Tesla vs others.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Generally speaking, I think any lawsuit that goes after unrealistic marketing is probably a good thing, but what I am not clear on is to what extent Tesla is complicit in the EPA range being unrealistic for most people‘s driving styles and conditions. Tesla definitely does worse than many (if not most) EV makers when it comes to the difference between the EPA range and tested real-world range, and yet Tesla’s are still th most efficient EV’s full stop.

The whole situation is a little odd and I wish the cars instead just showed some real-world test that was consistent across manufacturers and makes.

 

[NeverGoingBack]

Whatever ….

 

[GBMaryland]

Generally speaking, I think any lawsuit that goes after unrealistic marketing is probably a good thing, but what I am not clear on is to what extent Tesla is complicit in the EPA range being unrealistic for most people‘s driving styles and conditions. Tesla definitely does worse than many (if not most) EV makers when it comes to the difference between the EPA range and tested real-world range, and yet Tesla’s are still th most efficient EV’s full stop.

The whole situation is a little odd and I wish the cars instead just showed some real-world test that was consistent across manufacturers and makes.

I’ll be honest, with the exception of the winter months, I tend to get the 300 / 330 miles Tesla advertises for my MYP (depending on the installed tires).

I simply find that I need to put the car in chill mode, use FSDb, and have regenerative braking enabled.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

I’ll be honest, with the exception of the winter months, I tend to get the 300 / 330 miles Tesla advertises for my MYP (depending on the installed tires).

I simply find that I need to put the car in chill mode, use FSDb, and have regenerative braking enabled.

I can too in day to day summer driving (pretty much May - October in NY) and that's with a Performance Model 3 on 19" OEM wheels, and I don't use chill, I just have a gentle foot and don't race people...road trips and highway is different though - but when you're SC hopping it's not really about squeezing an extra 10 miles out of the battery, it's about the SoC when you hit the next charger.

I thin kTesla has been used to dealing with adoration from its customers, but now your regular drivers are buying them and just need a simple way of understanding range and charging. Unfortunately often when they turn to Tesla or even social media for answers, they often get gas-lit.

 

[SageBrush]

I'm not following. How can losses be collected?

Heat.

But that only applies to someone that charges and goes

Not applicable to that case, unless you are talking about DC charging

or a long trip with charging stops and few breaks

Charging stops are required

Doesn’t change my day to day use at all.

<<shrug>>

The point is that range concerns are mostly a concern for long distance driving, and in that scenario DC charging is used

 

[SageBrush]

but now your regular drivers are buying them and just need a simple way of understanding range and charging

Enter your destination. The car will tell you when, where, and for long to charge.

 

[voyager]

There is more:

"Tesla “created a special ‘team’ that was tasked specifically with handling these complaints … to divert customers away from service appointments, in an effort to save Tesla time and money in handling service appointments,” it says. Members of this purported team would allegedly “simply cancel any service appointment that was nominally related to concerns over a vehicle’s range.”

Lawsuit: Tesla faked driving range for cars, created special unit to squelch complaints

Lawsuit alleges that if special team’s remote diagnosis uncovered other problems, they were told not to tell the owner.

www.mercurynews.com

 

[dho112]

This is in the news as of yesterday I believe.

• 
  
• Tesla is facing a lawsuit from customers over its vehicles' driving range estimates.
• The suit accuses the company of "false advertising," claiming Tesla overvalued the cars.
• The lawsuit cites a Reuters investigation which found the carmaker had exaggerated its cars' range.

Tesla is facing a lawsuit from some customers over its vehicles' driving range estimates.

The plaintiffs have accused the electric vehicle company of "false advertising," claiming in court documents Tesla overvalued its cars to consumers.


What do you think of this? I am thinking of buying a Model Y.

EPA Mileage is done using very non-realworld conditions. They also use the legal get out of jail free term of “Your mileage may vary” which is exactly akin to the blanket Catholic Absolvement, “I forgive you of all your sins”

No one seems to realize that what Tesla says in their ads and announcements is not that YOU WILL GET THIS RANGE, but rather, GETTING THIS RANGE IS POSSIBLE.

They charge up a Model 3 to 100% with the battery pack at optimal running temp, use a perfectly flat, perfectly smooth test road with no traffic, drive an absolutely constant speed of 40mph with no deviations, and with a slight tailwind, and a 90 lb test driver at the wheel, in 75 degree temps, and you better believe they’ll get advertised range all day long every day they do it.

So no one can ever say the range claim is false. At best they can claim the range advertised is “misleading” or “confusing”, and that’s a much more difficult effort, because that would involve proving malicious intent, and Tesla can assert their reported range is accurate and true, which it is. And when reasonable people respond with, “Oh, c’mon Elon!” and he comes back with only, “What?” The law is almost entirely on his side…

 

[kimwin]

There’s no doubt about the fact that Tesla has absolutely downplayed issues with their vehicles.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, especially about AP, FSD + other hidden charges ( more frequent tire replacement, hi insurance cost due to hi cost repairs charged by Tesla monopoly). Tesla MUST provides training to get more Tesla proficient mechanics who own or work in other car repair / service center.
As of now, only Tesla service center can fix Tesla problem. If your Tesla is serviced by non-Tesla service Center, the warranty could be voided.
About max range, I have no issue as I had one opportunity to drive 110 miles and the kWh required does translate to 270+ miles / full charge.
In my local driving, I got 5+ miles per kWh (average over 1000 miles), Multiply that by 57 kWh (capacity of the car battery), I got between 290 - 300 miles for full charge. All are under normal weather conditions and relatively flat terrain.

 

[texas_star_TM3]

it could be considered false advertising... especially the pre-adjustment Model Y / Model 3 number. 330 miles in a AWD Model Y ... lol.... yeah
if Tesla would advertise at something more realistic like ~290 miles... then it wouldn't look so good on paper anymore and head-on with the Ioniq 5

 

[GBMaryland]

it could be considered false advertising... especially the pre-adjustment Model Y / Model 3 number. 330 miles in a AWD Model Y ... lol.... yeah
if Tesla would advertise at something more realistic like ~290 miles... then it wouldn't look so good on paper anymore and head-on with the Ioniq 5

I’ve actually been able to get 300 to 330 miles on my MYP… but I had to swap out the tires to do it, and they had to be low resistance.

And I had to drive around 70 to 75 miles an hour, with auto pilot/FSD

 

[ThomasD]

Tesla could have another issue with the EPA

MSN

 

[primedive]

The range thing is mostly BS. I wish the manufacturers didn’t rely on it so much, and the reports of Tesla removing creep and roll so they can play with range numbers is ridiculous. Publishing a steady state range at fast highway speeds at, say, cold and warm weather plus urban range would be more useful.

Do short trips or lots of cold weather driving, you won’t get the range. Drive fast on the highway, you won’t get the range. Drive at lower speeds in mild weather and you’ll get a lot more than the range. Then there’s factors like the fact the car doesn’t count consumption while parked, preheating, charging losses and so on.

I set my car to show % and don’t worry about it for short trips and use the nav for longer trips. It would be interesting if the car could also show the actual kWh left.

However at the end of the day it isn’t that big of a deal. Because I can charge at home, even my short trips with preheating are still around 3 to 6 L/100 at the worst on a cost basis, I don’t have to breathe in gas fumes while the car is warming up, and it warms up FAST. I have hit over 20L/100 doing short trips in a gas car. I would say the only concern is if you want to do longer trips into rural areas where you might need to rely on CCS, if you need to tow, or if it’s very cold, then ICE might still have the advantage. If you can’t charge at home or at residential rates, then I wouldn’t recommend electric. Tesla also still needs to put more small superchargers in rural areas.

 

[Karma Monsoon]

This is in the news as of yesterday I believe.

• 
  
• Tesla is facing a lawsuit from customers over its vehicles' driving range estimates.
• The suit accuses the company of "false advertising," claiming Tesla overvalued the cars.
• The lawsuit cites a Reuters investigation which found the carmaker had exaggerated its cars' range.

Tesla is facing a lawsuit from some customers over its vehicles' driving range estimates.

The plaintiffs have accused the electric vehicle company of "false advertising," claiming in court documents Tesla overvalued its cars to consumers.


What do you think of this? I am thinking of buying a Model Y.

We have similar suit in Quebec Canada, particularly pertaining to cold weather range. Living in the greater Montreal area and have experienced this first hand. In the spring to fall I feel there is a bit of range loss and find it comparable to what I was getting in my gas or diesel cars. Even with my most efficient 2002 VW Golf turbo diesel I was never able to get the advertised 1250km on a tank. My best range ever was 1077km. There is a proposal to include a winter range number for cold weather climates e.g.: Summer range 500km, Winter range 300km (from a cold battery start standardized for -5c or -10c).
Conversely the I guess the same can be true for very hot climates where A/C is used constantly and the battery must be cooled.

My friend's Bolt has a nice system for that. They show you 3 range projections on the dashboard Eco, Standard and aggressive (don't quote me on the exact titles). In the winter he relies solely on the aggressive number.

I'm sure that with all the data Tesla collects, they can provide better projections based on outside temperature, active wipers, heater and A/C consumption, etc... They already post some of the impact when looking at the Energy screen.

 

[GBMaryland]

My biggest issue is the deceptive manner in which Tesla sells the car, or at least did in 2019, and fails to tell you a bunch of things about the vehicle.

When I originally purchased my model three, before moving onto a model Y, there were a bunch of things that nobody told me until I went to pick up the car:

“don’t charge your battery over 80% on a daily basis,” for example.

Then there were things where they didn’t tell anybody about cold weather conditions and the effects it would have on the battery, in so far as range is concerned.

They didn’t mention how different Wheel configurations would affect your range.

They also didn’t mention the speed which range would be more likely to meet what they actually tell you the car can do.

The reason I bring up is simply because EVs are not the same as conventional vehicles; while they have many of the same issues that affect your range, they also have other things that you don’t see in typical ICE cars.

For that reason, Tesla disclosing all of those caveat, and being very above board should have been the practice. Very clearly it was not…

In 2019 when I started researching all this, most of this was not as available as it is now.

So yes, I would not be surprised if Tesla did engage in deceptive practices. I know I definitely experienced that from a sales perspective. (when you’re a kid and you failed to say something the adults still call it a lie.)

 

[kimwin]

Not surprising to me. I was told virtually nothing about these things. Only showed me how to use the app to link to my car, then how to put the car in P, R and D.
Driving it home, I was excited and start installing the Wall Connector. Then charged my car to ensure this home charging works. Everything else, good and bad, I learned later as time goes, including buying a spare tire for long trip.