The Perfect Tesla Raffle

[taurusking]

Easily, but I'd still take Texas delivery.

he he :biggrin: ...me too will take Texas delivery...Did you buy one bollar?

 

[Pollux]

You'll have to consult a local tax person. But in a lot of states, you'll be subject to "use tax" or something similar, which funny enough happens to match exactly the size of the excise tax you pay when purchasing locally.

I should do the math myself, but... If someone wanted to get themselves to the Factory to pick up, does it take care of the CA tax I have heard applies?
(I am in a "6.25% sales tax, no state income tax" state)

 

[wdolson]

Yeah, I'm involved. I'm blown away to discover this thread... thought I'd have to be the one to kick it off, but I was just plain exhausted since the big Tesla party / Climate XChange (CXC) fundraiser this past weekend here in Boston.

I'm really grateful to whomever started this thread and the various subsequent observations and kind words.

I'd just like to make sure that one point is clear: CXC will pay a ton o' taxes but isn't guaranteeing to pay ALL taxes. So in @ItsNotAboutTheMoney's example, a winner who happened to reside in Maine would receive $5000 towards State taxes -- excise/vehicle tax, income tax that results from winning this prize, what have you. THEN, CXC ALSO pays the federal withholding tax on the prize that you are winning. That *includes* paying federal taxes on the $5000 in state taxes! (It's insane.) Oh, and grossing up the taxes to account for the taxes themselves counting as income to a winner. The IRS has a formula for all this. So if CXC didn't pay a dime, the winner would have to cough up 25% of the fair market value of the Prize, up front. The rule for CXC is that it has to cough up 33.33%.

Because there's so much variation in state taxes, we gave up on trying to match the prize to the Winner's state of residence. (I've had an attorney looking into this since the summer.)

The basic components for the Winner are: $103K towards an S or X (derived by optioning out an S85D with a bunch of goodies), the destination & doc fee ($1200), an HPWC ($750), an electrician to install the HPWC ($500), State taxes ($5000), total value to winner of $110,450. CXC kicks in $36,730 to the feds. Total CXC outlay: $147,180.

And then of course, as first owner of the car, the winner will get the $7500 federal tax credit and any applicable local tax credits -- e.g., $2500 in MA.

So I am hopeful that (a) the winner can plop into the car without writing horrendous checks up front or even worrying too much about the electrician or wall charger, that's the "No Pain" part of the raffle, and (b) that the taxes pretty much net out the following filing season and the winner walks away pretty much with a wash on the taxes. Obviously, I can't (and DON'T) PROMISE that because there are just too many variables with individual tax positions and state laws and whatnot.

Oh, and this raffle is NOT legal in any jurisdiction where such a thing is prohibited!

Some of you have already been digging through the legal language: yes, it's true, CXC is accepting what amounts to a lower return on this raffle. I was very motivated by other examples I saw, including a thread on this forum, where people were shocked by the burden imposed by winning. In fact, I was pissed when I realized that if I won one of these raffles, I'd have to cough up a ton of money up front. What the heck kind of win is that. So we want an ordinary person who doesn't make a zillion dollars to be able to win this extraordinary car and drive away in it. The key design criterion for this raffle was, "would I want to win this?"(*) The CXC board bought in.

At the same time, I hope to get enough money for CXC that we can continue to do some pretty amazing work for carbon pricing in Massachusetts, and hopefully set an example that folks in other states will want to implement there.(**)

Alan/Pollux

(*)But I'm not allowed to enter or win. Nor my family.
(**)Laboratories of democracy!

I found a number of Tesla raffles a few months back and this is the best one I've found. If I won, I'd be out a little bit, the sales tax rate here is 8.1%, and the electric would might exceed $750, we have done enough electrical work on the house already that we need to add a sub-panel to do anything else (according to the electrician who did the last power install for the greenhouse). But I wouldn't complain one whit. Even if I had to cough up $10K extra I'd be happy to do it, I'm looking at over $100K right now with taxes and all. I think covering the taxes is really cool, even if it doesn't cover 100%.

 

[S'toon]

Yeah, I'm involved. I'm blown away to discover this thread... thought I'd have to be the one to kick it off, but I was just plain exhausted since the big Tesla party / Climate XChange (CXC) fundraiser this past weekend here in Boston.

I'm really grateful to whomever started this thread and the various subsequent observations and kind words.

If it hadn't been posted at Gas 2 I wouldn't have known about it. Hat tip to them.

I was a little puzzled that there wasn't a thread already, but I figured that there was party fatigue or something.

 

[Pollux]

Wow, that makes me happy. Plus $7500 fed credit. And any WA credit. Thanks for your analysis.

I found a number of Tesla raffles a few months back and this is the best one I've found. If I won, I'd be out a little bit, the sales tax rate here is 8.1%, and the electric would might exceed $750, we have done enough electrical work on the house already that we need to add a sub-panel to do anything else (according to the electrician who did the last power install for the greenhouse). But I wouldn't complain one whit. Even if I had to cough up $10K extra I'd be happy to do it, I'm looking at over $100K right now with taxes and all. I think covering the taxes is really cool, even if it doesn't cover 100%.

 

[ModelS1079]

Got my ticket!
Incredible raffle,
And a Great cause.

 

[Pollux]

Thank you, kind sir!

Got my ticket!
Incredible raffle,
And a Great cause.

 

[boofagle]

I'm having trouble finding the legal part where it would state which states would be not valid. Does anyone know if I can play if I live in PA?

 

[cinergi]

In case there's still any doubt, Alan (Pollux) is legit. I personally know Alan and his wife who's on the board of Climate XChange and they're the most warm wonderful people you'll ever meet. The raffle is awesome and the cause is awesome. The raffle was launched at a really cool event (that I attended) which they put together and hosted their house. They put an unbelievable amount of effort into this raffle and the event. Oh, and in case you're wondering, I bought a ticket. Almost bought 4 between my GF and I but we've been spending too much money recently :smile:

BTW, the cause/event/awareness-raising is important (pricing carbon usage -- in other words, incent good human behavior). Check out the site (climate-xchange.org) for info ...

 

[Pollux]

Wow! Thanks, @cinergi!

Alan

In case there's still any doubt, Alan (Pollux) is legit. I personally know Alan and his wife who's on the board of Climate XChange and they're the most warm wonderful people you'll ever meet. The raffle is awesome and the cause is awesome. The raffle was launched at a really cool event (that I attended) which they put together and hosted their house. They put an unbelievable amount of effort into this raffle and the event. Oh, and in case you're wondering, I bought a ticket. Almost bought 4 between my GF and I but we've been spending too much money recently :smile:

BTW, the cause/event/awareness-raising is important (pricing carbon usage -- in other words, incent good human behavior). Check out the site (climate-xchange.org) for info ...

- - - Updated - - -

Hi, @boofagle,

There is no part of the raffle website that does a state-by-state analysis of legality. I'm afraid that I don't have the stomach to do it myself, nor to engage an MA attorney to do it (which might be problematical, as they would be offering advice about states where they are not licensed to practice), nor to engage 49 more attorneys.

My basic belief is that purchasing a raffle ticket is legal in all the States but sometimes the method may vary. For example, I've heard that in one State, there may be a rule saying you have to buy over the phone. But I don't know even that for a fact. There's a lot of misinformation out there about raffles. For instance, there's a US postal regulation with the force of law that forbids transmitting raffle tickets via the US Mail. Violation is a felony, I believe. This is why you don't see many (any?) raffles sending tickets through the mail, and if you do, it may be because the raffle sponsor doesn't know what they are doing. Then some people believe that it's OK to send a raffle ticket via UPS or FedEx. Why not, after all? It's not the US Mail. Many of the FedEx employees and UPS employees themselves believe this. (By the way, it turns out that UPS Store employees are NOT UPS employees. A story for another time.) But they would be wrong. It turns out that FedEx and UPS both follow the US mail code in this regard.

Generally, you can Google something like, "raffle regulations <insert full state name here>" and pick through the hits to find something reasonably reliable. For instance, in Massachusetts, the MA Attorney General has regulations developed over the last few decades that are online and available for anyone to peruse. Also, you may find the enabling legislation; again, in MA, that's available through malegislature.gov.

I do know that in MA it's legal for an out-of-state resident to purchase an MA raffle ticket.

All that said, I notice that there are 4 purchasers so far from Pennsylvania, who between them have bought more than 4 tickets.

I am not a lawyer, I don't pretend to be one, I am not offering advice of any kind, legal or otherwise, you act alone, yadda yadda yadda.

Sorry I can't provide you with greater clarity.

Alan

I'm having trouble finding the legal part where it would state which states would be not valid. Does anyone know if I can play if I live in PA?

 

[boofagle]

@Pollox - completely understand! Sounds like you put a lot of thought and time into this raffle so thank you very much for doing so. I can't imagine how much of a pain this must be to get everything right in the eyes of the law. I'll do some more research to clarify before I purchase my ticket.

Thanks!

 

[bart513]

Wonderful cause. Ticket purchased!!! Good luck to all

 

[wdolson]

Wow! Thanks, @cinergi!

Alan



- - - Updated - - -

Hi, @boofagle,

There is no part of the raffle website that does a state-by-state analysis of legality. I'm afraid that I don't have the stomach to do it myself, nor to engage an MA attorney to do it (which might be problematical, as they would be offering advice about states where they are not licensed to practice), nor to engage 49 more attorneys.

My basic belief is that purchasing a raffle ticket is legal in all the States but sometimes the method may vary. For example, I've heard that in one State, there may be a rule saying you have to buy over the phone. But I don't know even that for a fact. There's a lot of misinformation out there about raffles. For instance, there's a US postal regulation with the force of law that forbids transmitting raffle tickets via the US Mail. Violation is a felony, I believe. This is why you don't see many (any?) raffles sending tickets through the mail, and if you do, it may be because the raffle sponsor doesn't know what they are doing. Then some people believe that it's OK to send a raffle ticket via UPS or FedEx. Why not, after all? It's not the US Mail. Many of the FedEx employees and UPS employees themselves believe this. (By the way, it turns out that UPS Store employees are NOT UPS employees. A story for another time.) But they would be wrong. It turns out that FedEx and UPS both follow the US mail code in this regard.

Generally, you can Google something like, "raffle regulations <insert full state name here>" and pick through the hits to find something reasonably reliable. For instance, in Massachusetts, the MA Attorney General has regulations developed over the last few decades that are online and available for anyone to peruse. Also, you may find the enabling legislation; again, in MA, that's available through malegislature.gov.

I do know that in MA it's legal for an out-of-state resident to purchase an MA raffle ticket.

All that said, I notice that there are 4 purchasers so far from Pennsylvania, who between them have bought more than 4 tickets.

I am not a lawyer, I don't pretend to be one, I am not offering advice of any kind, legal or otherwise, you act alone, yadda yadda yadda.

Sorry I can't provide you with greater clarity.

Alan

The post office regulation is probably some arcane law that came about due to interstate commerce a long time ago. The law has been made obsolete by the internet which does allow you to transmit an electronic raffle ticket across state borders.

The law is a bizarre thing. My SO is an attorney, so we end up talking about goofy things in the law all the time. There are also goofy ways laws are applied.

 

[Foodnut]

I looked up regulations in california: The rule of thumb is the 90/10 rule. So for Californians, this does not qualify. Someone can correct me I'm wrong.

In California, charities and certain other private nonprofit organizations may conduct raffles to raise funds for beneficial or charitable purposes in the state.

This exception to the general constitutional prohibition against lotteries requires that at least 90 percent of the gross receipts from these raffles go directly to beneficial or charitable purposes in California.

 

[RubberToe]

I looked up regulations in california: The rule of thumb is the 90/10 rule. So for Californians, this does not qualify. Someone can correct me I'm wrong.

In California, charities and certain other private nonprofit organizations may conduct raffles to raise funds for beneficial or charitable purposes in the state.

This exception to the general constitutional prohibition against lotteries requires that at least 90 percent of the gross receipts from these raffles go directly to beneficial or charitable purposes in California.

Does this mean us California residents can't participate? I was about to head over and buy one right now. Great cause BTW!

RT

 

[Foodnut]

I too was going to buy a raffle... great cause.

I read this here:
Raffles | State of California - Department of Justice - Kamala D. Harris Attorney General

 

[Canuck]

Here's one from my neck of the woods and for a very good cause (BC's Children's Hospital):

"Choose 2015 BMW i8 plus $5,000 Cash

OR Choose 2015 Model S Tesla 85D plus $20,000 vacation and $20,000 Cash

OR Choose $150,000 Cash"

But you only have a couple of days left to buy (Oct 2 at midnight). This is just the early bird prize, the grand prize is later of $2.2M cash or choice of properties.

Early Bird - BC Childrens Hospital Dream Lottery

There's also no tax on lottery wins in Canada.

Tickets
3 for $100
6 for $175
9 for $250
20 for $500

 

[RubberToe]

I too was going to buy a raffle... great cause.

I read this here:
Raffles | State of California - Department of Justice - Kamala D. Harris Attorney General

I looked through the FAQ, since the verbiage in the preceding text seemed to be oriented toward organizations within the State of California that want to run a raffle. The FAQ said nothing about California residents ability to purchase raffle tickets from other states.

IANAL,
RT

 

[S'toon]

Here's one from my neck of the woods and for a very good cause (BC's Children's Hospital):

"Choose 2015 BMW i8 plus $5,000 Cash

OR Choose 2015 Model S Tesla 85D plus $20,000 vacation and $20,000 Cash

OR Choose $150,000 Cash"

But you only have a couple of days left to buy (Oct 2 at midnight). This is just the early bird prize, the grand prize is later of $2.2M cash or choice of properties.

Early Bird - BC Childrens Hospital Dream Lottery

There's also no tax on lottery wins in Canada.

Tickets
3 for $100
6 for $175
9 for $250
20 for $500

Note, tickets can only be purchased in BC only.

1. Can I purchase tickets if I am not a resident of British Columbia?

Yes, but there are certain restrictions and conditions which must be met.
The lottery is intended for British Columbia residents. Ticket buyers must be physically in the province of British Columbia at the time of purchase. A non-resident of British Columbia may purchase a ticket if the entire payment transaction takes place while the person is in British Columbia and if the ticket or a receipt is issued at that time. Tickets must be purchased at one of our retail sales outlets in BC: London Drugs, Overwaitea Food Group Locations, BC Children’s Hospital or at one of the prize homes.
Tickets can be mailed to addresses outside the province of British Columbia.
Tickets or receipts can not be distributed to, mailed or otherwise sent to a non-residents third-party address in British Columbia.

http://bcchildren.com/faq/

I'd buy a ticket if it weren't for the long drive to BC and back. :smile:

 

[wdolson]

I looked through the FAQ, since the verbiage in the preceding text seemed to be oriented toward organizations within the State of California that want to run a raffle. The FAQ said nothing about California residents ability to purchase raffle tickets from other states.

IANAL,
RT

California law does appear to be silent on the legality of participating in a raffle from another state. It just requires raffles run in California be 90/10 raffles.

According to my SO (the attorney), a raffle is tied to the venue where it is being held (in this case Massachusetts) and unless a state specifically prohibits their residents from participating in a raffle in another state, it would most likely be allowed. As far as I know California allows it's residents to buy lottery tickets in Oregon and collect on it if they win. That is allowed in Oregon and Washington state. Almost all state laws on raffles only apply to raffles being run in that state.

I know for a fact there have been a number of raffles for Teslas thus far and I think most if not all of them were won by people in different states from where the raffle was held and nobody got in any trouble for it. I'm sure there have been a lot of other interstate raffles and I've never heard of any legal problems when someone in another state wins.