The New RAV4 EV

[Dave EV]

One of the big advantages of the Tesla plug is that it does both level 2 and level 3 ( supercharging ) via the same plug.
Since the Rav4-ev is almost certainly going to be <= 40kWh, it wont be able to supercharge - negating that benefit.

RAV4-EV will have 37 kWh usable - I'd bet $20 that it uses the same 40 kWh pack as the base Model S!

 

[jcstp]

Toyota | Toyota to Debut All New RAV4 EV at EVS 26

 

[smorgasbord]

RAV4-EV will have 37 kWh usable - I'd bet $20 that it uses the same 40 kWh pack as the base Model S!

How can I take you up on that bet?

Looks to me like the RAV-4 is adapted from the Roadster, not from Model S. Although the pictures we have so far are many months out of date:

Note that the RAV-4's PEM looks like the Roadster's.
Note that the gear selector looks like the Roadster's (but won't make it into production).
Note that 37kWh is not 40kWh.


BTW, 37kWh will take the Roadster over 170 miles at 50mph. Even with the RAV-4's heavier weight and worse aerodynamics, I'm thinking it still beats the Leaf's range handily. I'm expecting 100 real-world miles.

 

[TEG]

I would not read too much into the earlier RAV4EV prototypes (which were clearly based on Roadster tech).
The production model is likely to be rather different and evolved.

Also, my money would be on the pack being a bit unique from existing Tesla models.

 

[Dave EV]

How can I take you up on that bet?

Gentleman's agreement. Note that by "same pack" I mean same ultimate battery capacity and cell count/cells. Packaging will definitely be different.

Looks to me like the RAV-4 is adapted from the Roadster, not from Model S. Although the pictures we have so far are many months out of date:

Note that the RAV-4's PEM looks like the Roadster's.
Note that the gear selector looks like the Roadster's (but won't make it into production).

I doubt that they would use Roadster parts in vehicle half the price which should be produced in more volume, so like TEG I won't read into it.

Note that 37kWh is not 40kWh.

Note that 37 kWh usable is the number that has been leaked in the video. The Model S 40 kWh pack is not usable capacity, it is ultimate capacity much like the 53 kWh of the Roadster.

BTW, 37kWh will take the Roadster over 170 miles at 50mph. Even with the RAV-4's heavier weight and worse aerodynamics, I'm thinking it still beats the Leaf's range handily. I'm expecting 100 real-world miles.

Yes - and it will take 37 kWh of usable capacity to do it. 37 kWh will probably take a much more aero than RAV4 Model S 160 miles.

 

[doug]

Have you guys bothered to read up thread? This has already been discussed.

 

[Norbert]

Looks to me like the RAV-4 is adapted from the Roadster, not from Model S.

Not sure if that is what Doug refers to, but i remember reading/hearing from Tesla (and then posting here somewhere), that early prototypes where based on the Roadster motor, whereas production RAV4 will use the Model S motor. (Or perhaps a variation of it, I guess).

 

[smorgasbord]

Have you guys bothered to read up thread? This has already been discussed.

Yeah, I suppose I should have read all 422 posts first. Sorry.

 

[Larry Chanin]

It would be nice if another carmaker adopted Tesla's proprietary charging port, especially one producing in volume. ( I know that the RAV4 is likely to be merely a compliance vehicle.)

I believe that Toyota has much bigger plans for the Rav4 EV! Expanded distribution here, and a possible release in China to start!

Hi Lloyd,

Although I hope you are correct, Buisness Insider disagrees.

Electric Cars: Some Are Real, Most Are Only 'Compliance Cars'--We Name Names

2012 Toyota RAV4 EV
Finally, we come to the exciting electric conversion of Toyota's compact crossover RAV4, which we liked in our test drive of a prototype a year ago.

With a powertrain designed by Tesla, the 2012 RAV4 EV will be the first all-electric crossover since the 2002 demise of the original RAV4 EV--hundreds of which are still running around California today. It will assembled at the RAV4 production plant in Canada.

We'll get full details on Monday, but based on everything we've heard--most of it off the record--we're firmly convinced that the RAV4 EV is solely a compliance car for 2012 through 2014.

One tipoff? The electric RAV4 will only be available in California, at least initially. We're betting that any subsequent rollout is limited to Oregon, Washington, and the group of East Coast states that have adopted California's stricter emissions standards.

So we'll be watching next week to see if Toyota says anything about how many RAV4 EVs it hopes to sell--we're betting they won't--and whether the company will offer it to civilian buyers or simply as a fleet vehicle.

We also wonder if it'll be sold outright, or only offered on lease. If it's the latter, it means Toyota will be able to take back and destroy every one of its new-generation electric cars--another demonstration that the company doesn't believe in the segment.

Toyota too has a zero-emission vehicle solution. In 2015, it plans to put a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle on sale. It was originally going to cost $50,000, but that price has risen a whole lot of late.

Still, Toyota showed its FCV-R Concept hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle at this year's Detroit Auto Show, and insiders tell us that's the car that will go into production in 2015.

Battery-electric cars? Toyota just doesn't believe in them.

Larry

 

[Lloyd]

If this were just a compliance car, I believe that the initial contract would have been less then 100 million $.

Hi Lloyd,

Although I hope you are correct, Buisness Insider disagrees.

Electric Cars: Some Are Real, Most Are Only 'Compliance Cars'--We Name Names




Larry

Toyota, after running a Tesla-powered prototype for nearly two years, is ready to debut its electric RAV4 next week, slated to go on sale in late 2012 alongside an electric Scion iQ.

The white, capped-grill example you see here is a prototype based on a 2010 RAV4. Toyota said it would not release any specifics about the production version until Monday, when it will show the vehicle at the International Electric Vehicle Symposium in Los Angeles.

As Ford is doing with the Focus Electric, Toyota will build the RAV4 EV on the same production line as the gasoline-powered RAV4, which will allow the automaker more flexibility to respond to demand -- or, as in the case of the Chevrolet Volt, lack thereof. As part of a $100 million contract, Tesla will build the entire powertrain -- battery, motor, gearbox and other electronics -- and ship it from California to Toyota's Ontario plant for final assembly.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/autosblog.aspx?feat=e2f51ac1-2d07-4e81-ac55-2a017b4b4284

 

[doug]

Yeah, I suppose I should have read all 422 posts first. Sorry.

You can skim and you can use thread search. In my opinion the only real info starts around post #80 and ends around post #150 (or earlier), about a year and a half ago, and we haven't learned much since.

The test fleet had/has a Roadster drivetrain (PEM under the hood, Roadster motor, 2.0 push button "gear" select) with Tesla battery modules attached under the chassis. The "production" version was suggested to have a Model S motor and inverter and a more integrated battery.

Btw, if this video is to be believed. The RAV4 will get a purpose built battery pack that's different from the Model S pack we've seen.


View attachment 1124

Hopefully we'll get some real info next week.

 

[Larry Chanin]

If this were just a compliance car, I believe that the initial contract would have been less then 100 million $.

Hi Lloyd,

Of course we don't know the details of that "100 million dollar" contract. Even if this is a firm commitment it could be spread over many years.

I guess we will know for sure if Toyota reveals that it is releasing the car to non-compliance states.

I sincerely hope that they will do so sooner rather than later.

Larry

 

[Norbert]

You can skim and you can use thread search. In my opinion the only real info starts around post #80 and ends around post #150 (or earlier), about a year and a half ago, and we haven't learned much since.

The first reference in this thread to the RAV4 using the Model S motor is in post #240 by dpeilow, reporting a Tesla engineer's claim. But in so far as I recall it was also mentioned in one of the quarterly reports, might have been a Q&A session answer by the CFO. I guess they might also use a variation rather than the exact same motor.

EDIT: And they were saying (in the Q&A session) that this gives them additional testing relevant to the Model S powertrain, since Toyota would test it as well (and have experience with that, or so).

 

[smorgasbord]

Of course we don't know the details of that "100 million dollar" contract. Even if this is a firm commitment it could be spread over many years.

A lot of the details are in Tesla's 2011 Annual Report. For instance:

In July 2011, we entered into a supply and services agreement with Toyota for the supply of a validated electric powertrain system, including a battery pack, charging system, inverter, motor, gearbox and associated software which will be integrated into an electric vehicle version of the Toyota RAV4. Pursuant to this agreement, we expect that Toyota will pay us approximately $100 million between 2012 and 2014 based on our delivery of electric powertrain systems. The payments to us are not guaranteed and will only occur upon the delivery of powertrain systems that meet Toyota’s specifications.

 

[TEG]

Electric Cars: Some Are Real, Most Are Only 'Compliance Cars'--We Name Names

Hmm., good article. Here is the original (credited) version:
Electric Cars: Some Are Real, Most Are Only 'Compliance Cars'--We Name Names
I am surprised they didn't say more about BMW though.

 

[Larry Chanin]

A lot of the details are in Tesla's 2011 Annual Report. For instance:

Thanks for the information.

Do you share Lloyd's opinion that this $100 million dollar contract suggests that the RAV4 EV is not a compliance car?

If the powertrains say only cost $10,000 that would only be 1,000 cars from 2012 to 2014. It probably costs more than that.

It still sounds like a compliance car especially if we consider selling in multiple compliance states.

Larry

 

[jerry33]

It still sounds like a compliance car especially if we consider selling in multiple compliance states.

Toyota has never really liked electric cars. They were all set to crush them just like GM except that GM did it first and Toyota didn't want the bad publicity. The Prius was kind of a desperation move because they really never intended to create a new car--it just kind of happened because they let their top engineers actually do something. Toyota fought hard against the CA EV mandates both times. They succeeded in getting it revoked the first time but not the second. I'd say the new RAV4-EV is a compliance car--I would love to be proven wrong though.

 

[TEG]

Toyota has never really liked electric cars. They were all set to crush them just like GM except that GM did it first and Toyota didn't want the bad publicity...

And it was coming if they did...
Doug Korthof's RAV4 EV Protest

 

[vfx]

We should call the EV's 8% battery energy increase every year, "Kortof's Law"

 

[Norbert]

Toyota has never really liked electric cars.

Yet Toyota is the first of those companies to build a pure EV again. Even if only as a CARB move (which remains to be seen). But then, the first RAV4 EV was a CARB move as well (as was the EV1), yet owners were happy with it. And Elon said it will be a good car. So the big question will probably be "for lease or for sale ?".