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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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The reason this “dividend” discussion was permitted to continue through trading days was because it became painfully obvious that there are more than a vanishing number of forum participants who do not have an understanding of how capital markets work. I am hoping that some of the discussion has reached the consciousness of these members - hoping.

Among other important answers, FC finally brought out what I thought would have been raised very early on (and if it had been, my apologies to another contributor for having missed it): as has happened innumerable times in the past, a traded company that does not pay dividends also has enriched its shareholders by a third-party corporate buyout.

But the most important reason for capital markets not just to exist, but to establish - through the trading activities of those who can buy and sell without the layered complexity of a dividend - the worth of the corporate entity. And THAT thereupon is what allows the company once again to return to the capital markets, through equity or debt in all of their manifold permutations, and it is that which indeed, contrary to a prior poster’s assertion, is how the capital markets DO create REAL value.

Cliffski has been crucified for saying A, when he didn’t say A, he said B.

“This share does not pay dividends”.
“This share can never pay dividends.”
“No shares may pay dividends.”

Three very different things.

The first share has value. The second has almost no value. For the second share to have value one would require enough of them for a controlling interest, or a corporate buyout that leaves you holding a new stock of the first type that has value.

If statement three were true, the stock market would collapse, because almost no value could be extracted from any stock, not even via buyout.

An analogy is you pay for a friends college tuition in exchange for an IOU for 1% of his earnings in some future year. The IOU has value, you can sell it for a gain if your friend becomes a big earner. But if pixies glue his wallet shut*, the IOU is worthless.

*Or he is transported by aliens. Invent a contrivance which blocks reward, as arbitrary as the non existence of dividend.
 
What I don't understand is how is he getting into GF3 - apparently with Tesla's knowledge - while essentially doing some spying for competitors.

His company's clients are mainly VC companies and hedge funds. I gather his team do car tear downs and quality inspections but also collect survey data. Presumably his GF3 visits were accompanying a large Tesla shareholder on their site visit.

I'd guess he runs an in depth due diligence research house/reverse engineering firm, focussed on engineering heavy companies. He says he is a "scientist with a doctorate in nuclear engineering as well as a doctorate in aerospace engineering from highly reputable organizations"

I'll caveat that there is nothing to confirm all his comments are not just made up, but he seems legitimate to me.

Some interesting comments on Tesla:
". I have one small team that specializes in cosmetic and visual/appearance concerns."

"my firm largely works for investors. Mainly hedge funds and VC firms. So much of the specifics is actually their IP.
I have obtained approval to talk in general terms from 3 of my clients, but I'm under NDA's for most stuff.
We collect all kinds of automotive consumer data via surveys and thru organizations we collaborate with."

"Don't think there has been a single Model 3 fire caused by the car in ANY way, including crashes. S & X vehicles likely to get the same pack modifications. Fire will soon be 10x-50x less likely that other vehicles IMHO."
"Have it on good authority that the refresh will have the Model 3 pack design which is nearly fireproof. Get an S then if you are worried. Pack version "E" is on the updated S. We are waiting on a donor to tear down - the E pack may be updated already. If so, the fire risk is ~ 0."

"I could be wrong here, but it's been suggested to me by "people close" that Tesla is wanting to shed the additional cost of having a cell supplier. The pack is the largest cost part of the car. Panasonic has a markup. Make your own cells, save whatever profit Pana was charging."

"I post this because my company does extensive survey work. While I agree with your assessment of complaints, and our own survey data reflects this, Tesla has some kind of magic working. Customers generally own more than one Tesla, or replace their Tesla with another one. So while our survey data and others confirms the complaint levels, it definitely doesn't correlate with customer loyal or satisfaction in any notable way. We don't see this very often, so it's definitely noteworthy. Most companies would kill for this TBH."

"Some points I would differ on would be: 1) Panasonic vs Tesla isn't unhealthy. Panasonic will have plenty of buyers of their cells regardless. 2) Tesla has fairly huge resources for cell tech via SpaceX."
"I know quite a few materials engineers, chemistry experts and more at SpaceX. Their teams of metallugists and many other disciplines are among the best in the world and highly inventive and creative. I have people older than me that say they are the best they've EVER seen."

"Tesla's cell tech is better than most, but I probably wouldn't call it a moat. Their advantage is more in the management systems and control logic, and the greatest advantage is in their total system integration of everything."

"I'll say my company is NOT located "conveniently" and dozens of my employees own Teslas."

"Has the chance to visit both Fremont and China/Shanghai recently. Much of Munro's suggestions have already been incorporated at Fremont. China factory is significantly different but won't suffer the same issues Fremont did first pass. But China may surface a lot of new ones..."

"We have had dozens of people inspect hundreds of Model 3's in the wild. Our data matches Lutz's observation. Gaps and paint are now def world class. Early ones were awful."
Some other auto industry comments:

"Having had a close look at i3 manufacturing, BMW did an absolutely horrific job with many aspects of the i3 program. The design wasn't appropriate, the line was far too costly and complex, but the worst was they made a car no one wanted. BMW's fail was their own here."

"Dealers actually spend the bulk of the advertising costs - depending on mfg some 4 to 6%. While the OEM isnt losing this, it does get passed to customers and does cut into margins one way or another. The OEM kicks in another 2-4% for an overhead of 6 to 10%."

"Having a supply chain is part of the problem. Existing carmakers are probably going to have to shed their suppliers to compete on price. Cars cost more than necessary because there are 4 to 8 layers of suppliers all adding their own markups..."

"The Germams will struggle with speed. Yes they can manufacture well. But I am extremely skeptical of their ability to pivot quickly. And by quickly I literally mean pivot over 4 to 10 yr timeframes."
 
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Attaching it to the car+owner creates an interesting problem for Tesla. Basically, it reduces the resale value of the car, so it makes it more likely for the owner to keep the old one rather than upgrading. It seems that a lot of Tesla owners do trade up fairly frequently.

What if: instead of attaching lifetime free SuperCharging to just the car, or even to Car + Owner, they attached it to only the Owner? One of the main reasons that I wouldn't upgrade my 2015 70D is because (until today) I would have lost my free SC. IMO, it would actually encourage present S/X owners to upgrade, knowing they can keep their free SuperCharging. It would be a nice perk for present owners.
 
What if: instead of attaching lifetime free SuperCharging to just the car, or even to Car + Owner, they attached it to only the Owner? One of the main reasons that I wouldn't upgrade my 2015 70D is because (until today) I would have lost my free SC. IMO, it would actually encourage present S/X owners to upgrade, knowing they can keep their free SuperCharging. It would be a nice perk for present owners.
Or bring back free SC, once in a while, when they want owners to upgrade.

Still, makes me wonder why they are doing it now. Raven hasn't brought in the expected orders ?
 
Apparently you cut off my next sentence or didn't even bother reading.

Between 2011 (74 mile Leaf) and 2016 (230 mile Bolt) - for similar price we got 3 times the range.​
Yes, I purposefully deleted the rest of your sentence since it was irrelevant to my reference to Mark's explanation that GF-1 would build prismatic cells and didn't need 80% of the original planned foot-print. (FWIW, "EVNow's Law" is equivalently perspicacious.)
 
He is doing it for "clients".


He has no background in manufacturing. And he is talking about "2 of my clients".

ps : I still think it would make a lot of sense for Microsoft to invest in Tesla (for FSD). But they already invested $1B in OpenAI - not sure whether its a precursor or that's about it.
My guess is BRK is one of the two clients.
 
Yes, I purposefully deleted the rest of your sentence since it was irrelevant to my reference to Mark's explanation that GF-1 would build prismatic cells and didn't need 80% of the original planned foot-print. (FWIW, "EVNow's Law" is equivalently perspicacious.)
That makes zero sense. If you didn't like my "ps" - just ignore it. Don't take it out of context. Afterall, I wasn't even replying to you. Who is "Mark", anyway ?
 
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Perhaps to increase their odds of a profitable quarter?
They can't figure that out now - afterall increase in sales may be offset by lower margin.

For all price changes, incentives etc., I think there is a simple explanation. The analysis would be much easier if we recognize basic economics.

Tesla is trying to balance production, orders and ASP. So, if they see lower production than orders or lower ASP, they increase price or remove the lower trim (like they got rid off SR).

If they see lower orders than production, they introduce an incentive.
 
His company's clients are mainly VC companies and hedge funds. I gather his team do car tear downs and quality inspections but also collect survey data. Presumably his GF3 visits were accompanying a large Tesla shareholder on their site visit.

I'd guess he runs an in depth due diligence research house/reverse engineering firm, focussed on engineering heavy companies. He says he is a "scientist with a doctorate in nuclear engineering as well as a doctorate in aerospace engineering from highly reputable organizations"

I'll caveat that there is nothing to confirm all his comments are not just made up, but he seems legitimate to me.

Some interesting comments on Tesla:
". I have one small team that specializes in cosmetic and visual/appearance concerns."

"my firm largely works for investors. Mainly hedge funds and VC firms. So much of the specifics is actually their IP.
I have obtained approval to talk in general terms from 3 of my clients, but I'm under NDA's for most stuff.
We collect all kinds of automotive consumer data via surveys and thru organizations we collaborate with."

"Don't think there has been a single Model 3 fire caused by the car in ANY way, including crashes. S & X vehicles likely to get the same pack modifications. Fire will soon be 10x-50x less likely that other vehicles IMHO."
"Have it on good authority that the refresh will have the Model 3 pack design which is nearly fireproof. Get an S then if you are worried. Pack version "E" is on the updated S. We are waiting on a donor to tear down - the E pack may be updated already. If so, the fire risk is ~ 0."

"I could be wrong here, but it's been suggested to me by "people close" that Tesla is wanting to shed the additional cost of having a cell supplier. The pack is the largest cost part of the car. Panasonic has a markup. Make your own cells, save whatever profit Pana was charging."

"I post this because my company does extensive survey work. While I agree with your assessment of complaints, and our own survey data reflects this, Tesla has some kind of magic working. Customers generally own more than one Tesla, or replace their Tesla with another one. So while our survey data and others confirms the complaint levels, it definitely doesn't correlate with customer loyal or satisfaction in any notable way. We don't see this very often, so it's definitely noteworthy. Most companies would kill for this TBH."

"Some points I would differ on would be: 1) Panasonic vs Tesla isn't unhealthy. Panasonic will have plenty of buyers of their cells regardless. 2) Tesla has fairly huge resources for cell tech via SpaceX."
"I know quite a few materials engineers, chemistry experts and more at SpaceX. Their teams of metallugists and many other disciplines are among the best in the world and highly inventive and creative. I have people older than me that say they are the best they've EVER seen."

"Tesla's cell tech is better than most, but I probably wouldn't call it a moat. Their advantage is more in the management systems and control logic, and the greatest advantage is in their total system integration of everything."

"I'll say my company is NOT located "conveniently" and dozens of my employees own Teslas."

"Has the chance to visit both Fremont and China/Shanghai recently. Much of Munro's suggestions have already been incorporated at Fremont. China factory is significantly different but won't suffer the same issues Fremont did first pass. But China may surface a lot of new ones..."

"We have had dozens of people inspect hundreds of Model 3's in the wild. Our data matches Lutz's observation. Gaps and paint are now def world class. Early ones were awful."
Some other auto industry comments:

"Having had a close look at i3 manufacturing, BMW did an absolutely horrific job with many aspects of the i3 program. The design wasn't appropriate, the line was far too costly and complex, but the worst was they made a car no one wanted. BMW's fail was their own here."

"Dealers actually spend the bulk of the advertising costs - depending on mfg some 4 to 6%. While the OEM isnt losing this, it does get passed to customers and does cut into margins one way or another. The OEM kicks in another 2-4% for an overhead of 6 to 10%."

"Having a supply chain is part of the problem. Existing carmakers are probably going to have to shed their suppliers to compete on price. Cars cost more than necessary because there are 4 to 8 layers of suppliers all adding their own markups..."

"The Germams will struggle with speed. Yes they can manufacture well. But I am extremely skeptical of their ability to pivot quickly. And by quickly I literally mean pivot over 4 to 10 yr timeframes."
This guy is a Tesla bear?
 
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Elon’s Gulfstream landed in Victoria BC today. About a month ago he flew to Wyoming. My theory is he’s looking for mines to secure battery materials. I don’t have any evidence, it just seems like something he would do.

Maybe just stopping in for high tea at the Empress Hotel.
 
That tax would mainly be VAT, which would be 17% of the gross margin of GF3 outputs.
As long as you manufacture anything in China for a margin you need to pay that, it doesn’t matter whether you are profitable or not.

With even the most pessimistic projections, GF3 would have no problem meeting that obligation.

If you want to compare that tax contribution to US tax(or the absence of it), that is the equivalent of state sales tax.
For Tesla cars sold in most states, government did get a healthy tax income, even though that’s not directly payed by Tesla.
Difference in China is, the manufacturer pays that tax for the consumer and price it in the MSRP, and the rate is much higher.
So, if we assume $50k ASP, 20% margin, and 17% VAT on margin, tax would be $1,700 per car.

To get to $323M of VAT per year, it would be a sale rate of ~3.7k/week. Did I get this right ?

BTW, $1,700 / car is actually a smaller than most sales tax. In WA for example, the tax would be $5k on a $50k car. Even at a modest 4% rate, it would be $2k.
 
Do you have a good source for $4k? I have ICE equivalent powertrain costs at around $6.5k. Transmission, cooling, exhaust, fuel system, other etc - $3-3.5k. Base engine $3-3.5k.
This will increase in future as new emission/pollution limits are introduced.

For Model 3 I have powertrain (ex battery pack) costs currently at $4.5k (BMS, charging, motor, inverter, DC-DC converter, gearbox, cooling, cables etc). Most of these should follow experience curves lower as EVs continue to scale, but some specific components already have huge cumulative production volume from other applications so EV growth will be less of a demand step change and these will reduce in production cost at a lower pace.

The raw material cost per kwh is not a fixed quantity. Lithium Carbonate, Nickel Sulphate etc are not really raw materials but high value add components whose total market size will increase by multiples or even orders of magnitude, leading to experience curves (which act due to economies of scale, process improvement through experience and increased R&D budgets in-line with industry revenue) and production cost reductions as we have seen for all mass produced technological products.

Also, parts of cell R&D are focussed on requiring less kg of active cathode per KWH, and other R&D is focussed on using less expensive materials in the cathode composition - such as for example substituting Nickel and Cobalt out for Manganese. So even at current prices the raw material cost per kwh will reduce.

But I agree its not obvious we will get a step change in these in the short term and I don't think the above Camry equivalent price forecasts/timelines are realistic.
The UBS/Munro 2017 Bolt teardown had 4400 for a Golf TSi Wolfsburg. I figure the high volume Camry 4cyl is a few hundred less than the turbocharged Golf engine.

They showed 8500 for a BMW 330i, which is more equivalent to a Model 3 and shows why Tesla was smart to target the premium performance segment instead of mainstream family cars.

They also had ~3800 for the Bolt. That's pretty consistent with 4500 for the higher performance Model 3. It doesn't cost as much to increase BEV power as it does for ICE.

Power is cheap in a BEV, but range is expensive. Performance sedans are ripe for the picking, but econo-cars are a much tougher nut to crack. The operating cost advantage is less with econo-cars, too, due to high MPG. Especially with something like the 50 mpg Camry Hybrid.

Trucks are another high power segment and have a good operating cost advantage. But towing range is extremely expensive. I see trucks being a tough market, except for very high end and local fleets. Both are sizable sub-markets, though.
 
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So, if we assume $50k ASP, 20% margin, and 17% VAT on margin, tax would be $1,700 per car.

To get to $323M of VAT per year, it would be a sale rate of ~3.7k/week. Did I get this right ?

BTW, $1,700 / car is actually a smaller than most sales tax. In WA for example, the tax would be $5k on a $50k car. Even at a modest 4% rate, it would be $2k.
The customer pays the full 17% (or whatever) VAT, so it's definitely not smaller than US sales tax.
Tesla gets a credit for purchased domestic parts. But that's because those suppliers pay VAT. This is different than sales tax, where the final producer pays the full tax and suppliers get an exemption.

It's not clear to me if the RMB 2.23 billion requirement includes the full retail VAT or just the part Tesla owes after deducting their credits.
 
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