Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Perhaps a sarcastic statement?

Currently even basic AP equivalent from other suppliers are geofenced (and are still terrible). No one wants geofenced FSD. It's literally worth less than 0. Ask Waymo and Cruise how worthless it is. About -2 billion/year.
Yes, but keep in mind that Waymo has the potential to triple those earnings to -6 billion/yr just by expanding to other cities. 🎉🎈

Kidding aside, why aren't they making any money yet? If it's a lack of riders, why wouldn't the same issue exist with Tesla?

Based on rider comparisons, I'm sure the Tesla Network would pick up 90% of their riders overnight (speed, quality, convenience, and safety). But that's not very many. And possibly "as good as a human by the end of the year" isn't something people are ready to trust right away (as they think about drunk uncle).
 
A pretty flat ER. People are reacting to what they think they heard Elon say rather than what he said. Imo the big takeaway was that Tesla will invest heavily into R&D with Dojo and that they think this will massively pay off in the future. I was disappointed that they seemed to indicate that the number of optimus was a lot lower than the connecting the dots rumor and they did not confirm that they were doing anything useful. I will have to adjust my timelines of Optimus a bit into the future. But good that they are getting ready to start production of them, but I the ramp will probably be pretty slow as the software is not ready yet...
 
A few days ago, I thought I would be cute and sell some shares for $299.69 (for some needed pocket change). I thought I might be selling for too little but set the limit order anyway.

missed it by that much.gif

and so my legendary powers of prediction remain intact.

Still learning. Not advice.
 
Threads of the day:
FSD Transfer *NEW*
EV and Battery Credits 50:50 sharing with Pana batteries
Tesla to license Autopilot / FSD Who will be first?
Project Highland (Investor impact etc.) Q3 shutdowns?
Tesla Energy and utility scale projects Margins up
Inventory Discussion Vehicles in-transit, test-drive and display vehicles account for a substantive majority of our total days of supply.
4680 General discussion - Range & $/kWh Cybercell ramping
4680 Cathode & Anode discussion for investors anodes with silicon, and in-house cathode, will be coming another day
Project Dojo - the SaaS Product? $1Bn spend
 
In theory a car with FSD has FSD included in the trade in value.

But in reality- and in numerous threads in here from owners going through it- despite Elon promising to "fix" this multiple times over several years- it's often "valued" at or near 0 on a trade in.


What if Tesla discounts it like they did to us?
"License FSD now and free your programmers to do other things."

Legacy OEMs have programmers? Is that new?
 
How? 50% growth is 50% growth.

So if in year 2026 they need to go from 5M to 7.5M / year, then 1/3 of their production lines will be ramping. In 2027 to go from 7.5M to 11.25M again 1/3 of the lines will be ramping…. It will be just as large a percentage of overall production as ramping Berlin and Austin In year 2023.

Assuming they maintain 50% growth and a production ramp takes 1 year, then 1/3 of the lines are ramping on average every year. It’s not a smaller piece of the pie. It’s always 1/3 of the pie.

I think you are asking 2 interesting implied questions here:-

  1. What will the ramp of a Gen3 production line look like?
  2. Why are the current production line shutdowns happening?
While we can't be certain, I hope the answer to 2. is that the current shutdowns are for things like Model 3 Highland, and the long run end result of those shutdowns will be higher production from the same lines. And I also hope that a shutdown this year means that future shutdowns are less likely.

We could summarise that by saying, Tesla is trying to complete all other major shutdowns and ramps before starting the Gen3 ramp.

Returning to the Gen3 ramp Q 1, poses additional questions.

A. How does the unboxed process impact on capex spend, and the overhead costs of ramping a factory?​
B. Does an unboxed factory ramp faster?​
C. Does unboxed mean more lines and a simple copy-and-paste to add new lines?​
D. What impact does 2 for the price of 1 have on the Gen 3 ramp?​
E. Does a more mature 4680 production process help guarantee cell supply?​
Some element of "production hell" for the first Gen3 ramp would not be a total surprise, but fundamentally it seems like a simple process, except for the final assembly when all major parts of the car are put together.

As we learn more about Cybertruck production we can see how the final major assembly phase of a Cybertruck might be similar to a Gen3 process, Stainless steel panels are used instead of painted panels. they may be larger and more structural, but in some ways the process could be similar.
 
Last edited:
Pretty good Q2 result.

=====

Comments on current quarter (Q3) were rather vague, which I am guessing is why the sell off during the conference call:

- Auto production will be down due to production line being retooled. no indication on how much production will be down. Could be 10k, could be 30k, could be 50k or more, all depends on how many lines are down (just model 3? Or Y lines as well?) and for how long (1 week? 2 weeks?) no way to know until we start hearing about factory downtimes.

- Refused to give outlook on Q3 margins, or simply no way to answer as they don’t know yet whether they will have to reduce prices further.

- Will 16 days of inventory be enough to ensure deliveries match Q2? ie: less production made up for by inventory drawdown?

- Limited time FSD transferability: might be a good driver to clear out stale inventory before product refresh (3 hopefully, and maybe the last of the HW3 Y inventory if they are ready to move all factories over to HW4?)

=====

Good to see Elon acknowledged he has no idea about macroeconomic conditions, makes a change from his previous continuously wrong comments about recession being imminent.

Also good to see him on multiple occasions during the call that he has been wrong about FSD success in the past, and he may still be, and also caveated that regulator approval is a separate future step to get past.

=====

great to hear some concrete good news on 4680 progress, with more to come from identified inputs not yet being used.

=====

In talks to License FSD to a major Automaker. Fantastic. If this can be done, even if it’s for a future date, it greatly improves things for FSD in USA. Reasoning being that if Tesla essentially becomes the standard for FSD in USA, by being on at least two large automakers (likely more) - then vehicle infrastructure (road markings, permanent signage etc) will likely be improved/maintained to accommodate Tesla FSD issues specifically.
 
Not to be a hater, but I'm not sure that this fsd "transfer" will work out all that well anyway - they just low ball your trade in even more.
Right?
I’m not sure how the transfer would work out for current FSD holders. Tesla may require you to trade in with them, or they might require you to remove FSD before you sell the car to a third party. Either would result in a lower trade-in value. If your FSD is $10k or more, it might be better to not take the deal. If you have an older $5-6k FSD and you are looking to replace anyway, it might be worth it. Overall, I don’t think it will add that very much to Q3 demand, depending on the technicalities of how it’s executed.
 
I’m not sure how the transfer would work out for current FSD holders. Tesla may require you to trade in with them, or they might require you to remove FSD before you sell the car to a third party. Either would result in a lower trade-in value. If your FSD is $10k or more, it might be better to not take the deal. If you have an older $5-6k FSD and you are looking to replace anyway, it might be worth it. Overall, I don’t think it will add that very much to Q3 demand, depending on the technicalities of how it’s executed.

Whoever is buying your car doesn't care what you personally paid for FSD, so not sure why that would be a factor in a selling/upgrading decision. (Unless I am misinterpreting your post?)
 
Whoever is buying your car doesn't care what you personally paid for FSD, so not sure why that would be a factor in a selling/upgrading decision. (Unless I am misinterpreting your post?)
If Tesla would require you to remove it, then it wouldn’t be there to be included. So, you are losing that value, assuming you either have to trade to Tesla or sell without FSD to a third party. Losing a lower value when trading up may be ok.
 
  • Like
Reactions: navguy12
If Tesla would require you to remove it, then it wouldn’t be there to be included. So, you are losing that value, assuming you either have to trade to Tesla or sell without FSD to a third party. Losing a lower value when trading up may be ok.
If the new owner of the old car decides to purchase FSD, I wonder what Tesla will charge them, I suspect it may be the current price.

So perhaps there are 2 cars, one has FSD, and for the other car, the owner needs to pay for FSD.

But importantly the new car buyer doesn't need to pay for FSD even if they get a lower trade in. Older cars might find it hard to attract a trade in which fully recognises the value of FSD. I still suspect that works out to be a better deal for the owner who is trading in their car with FSD, and wants FSD on their new car.

Tesla is probably banking on FSD working so well that the owner of the old car eventually wants to buy it.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: y_naught
But in reality- and in numerous threads in here from owners going through it- despite Elon promising to "fix" this multiple times over several years- it's often "valued" at or near 0 on a trade in.




Legacy OEMs have programmers? Is that new?
The software should have a net value of close to zero. You are technically paying to buy a key to activate the entire function of the hardware put into your car. Much like a key to an actual house, there should just be a one key to one house. Now Elon is granting people a replacement key for a new house.

How much is the metal key worth vs the cost of the house?

I understand when people say "hey that software should be transferrable"...uh but the hardware isn't. Tesla is not in the business of giving you a master key so you can live in whatever house you want.

People are confused when the hardware is free and a payment for the software is used to unlock the hardware. Like if the software is included but it cost 15k to buy the hardware, not one person would cry about it not being transferrable even though it's the same thing.
 
The biggest takeaway from the call is that Energy gross margins (including the moribund solar business) are now higher than auto. Energy as a whole was at 18.42%. If you assume solar is a 0% gross profit business and back out $3 per watt in revenue, the MP business is at around 21% gross margins. And that’s before accounting for the PW business.
That is a freaking big deal because the mega pack business is about to explode. It is like the auto business back when Tesla made just the S/X but with better operating leverage built in.
 
Last edited:
I didn't hear the entire call, any mention of Solar Roof, or solar at all? No Solar Roof in the shareholder deck.
No Solar Roof on the house I am building either. Tesla told me to get stuffed after two years when we finally got to the point in construction where we were ready for the roof, with multiple forms signed and final applications filed with utility and township. We need a roof immediately and I am clueless.

First world problems.

I get the feeling that the Tesla Solar Roof is pretty much DOA as a mass market commodity.

Think Tesla energy is all about storage going forward, not generation.
 
Not so sure about the idea that price discounts in the quarter were "fairly minimal" looking at the price history tracker

Model Y LR and P are both $4500 cheaper in the US than they were in Q1 (prices dropped $5k in April then crept up $500)
Model 3 LR wasn't available to order at all this year until the beginning of May where it was listed again $10k cheaper than when it was removed in August 2022
Model S LR and Plaid were cut by $5k in April and then walked up offset by offering unlimited free supercharging
Model X LR and Plaid were cut by $10k at the beginning of March, cut by another $5k in April, then increased by $3500 while offset by offering unlimited free supercharging

+ referral discounts, inventory discounts, free FSD trials, etc

On the flip side, S and X deliveries in Q2 are almost double Q1 but of course still a small slice of the overall pie. And more vehicles were being shipped globally to fulfil orders in other markets,
So how did this work out?

Q1 ASP: $47.207
Q2 ASP: $45,625

So yeah, I'd say an average discount of ~$1,500 is "fairly minimal."
 
Sounds like some of Teslas R&D budget should go towards ensuring a better than 2800bit modem sound quality for earnings calls...
Although 2.8kbit/sec is a strange rate for a standard fossilized modem, a state-of-the-art very low-bitrate codec offering 3kbit/sec for speech compression might be Lyra:


To make this more Tesla-investor audio-adjacent relevant, when are we getting our AM radio back again ("gag me with a spoon", as they say from that era)?
 
Last edited: