I also believe Elon has alleged that he misrepresented (or was unaware of) the financial health of the company, and he had to fire him and take over, else the company would likely go bankrupt.
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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable
- Thread starter AudubonB
- Start date
larmor
Active Member
These problems were present in the past. But now more people have access. It remains a beta implementation, but if it is even half better than a human then that would imply fewer accidents. NHTSA responding with directed questions and faults is great, instead of saying the whole system should be shut down.
I concur completely (see my previous comment comparing NHTSA to a financial auditor). But what I'm curious about is what will their response be when TSLA corrects all their issues? Say nothing? Issue a report card? Or will it be up to Tesla to issue a press release stating all issues have been addressed and they have NHTSA's blessing?
So it's hands free but not leg free? Cool.
larmor
Active Member
There will be many edge cases, but NHTSA will need to adapt its own metrics and testing to tesla's system and many others coming as well. On the pathway to blessing would be third party validation of improved safety and decreased accidents using the system, much like a financial auditor.
NHTSA should recall every system and hold them to be as reliable as Tesla's system first before going after Tesla. This was complete utter BS. My friends Volvo will run into cars in front of him 50% of the time in stop and go traffic with their Volvo motion or whatever it is on and yet zero recalls.
Bet TSLA
Active Member
I think you are mistaken about "purchased". What is relevant is whether the car has a version of FSD Beta installed (or pending install). Those who have purchased FSD, but have some other version of the firmware installed, are obviously not going to get a "recall" update.
People who have FSD but have not requested FSD Beta, and people who have been suspended from the Beta are clearly members of this no recall group.
Gigapress
Trying to be less wrong
It’s just a recall. Normal processes, same as anything else.
I just read through the regulations and it looks like Tesla is just responsible for executing the remedy and providing quarterly reports until all affected vehicles have been fixed.
Here’s the relevant section. (I’m not a lawyer and this is the first time I’ve read this part of the CFR.)
Let’s look at the actual recall report.
Basically it went:
- Since Aug 2021, discussion and engineering analysis between Tesla and NHTSA about Autopilot and FSD Beta
- NHTSA provided specific FSD concerns in January
- Tesla disagreed but voluntarily recalled anyway to be extra careful
The actual engineering report is available but with a service fee.
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What's long term? If you held TQQQ for 11.5 years from 2010 to mid 2021 you'd have been up about 100x vs. 9x for QQQ. That volatility hurts you just as much in a down market, for sure. Just like anything in investing, timing matters. Most people find it much easier to take profits in that sort of ETF than a company they believe in deeply. At least that's true in my case.
Absolutely. Musk's tenacity is underappreciated. As is his fund raising acumen. Automotive and rockets are hugely capital intensive industries. Being able to raise lots of money to keep these companies not only surviving but exponentially growing is massively impressive. People denigrate him as a "snake oil salesman", but you have to be willing to convince people of outlandish things to get the investment money.
And then there's his ability to hire incredible talent. Once again, it is fashionable to ding him for firing people on the spot. Yet somehow really good engineers and managers mange to not get fired and thrive (until they burn out) at his companies.
Thanks mate. So in other words, NHTSA has no responsibility to state that a recall has been completed/corrected, only if it hasn't?
I'm in agreement with @larmor 's statement above that new metrics need to be developed for systems like Tesla's, along with lesser ones like the Volvo one that @Singuy just described. A kind of report card if you will. With all the competing systems out there currently and the ones yet to come, it would be a boon to consumers and I would much rather have the NHTSA create something similar than Consumer Reports.
Edit:. Responded to the wrong person! Sorry @SmokyPeat
I'm in agreement with @larmor 's statement above that new metrics need to be developed for systems like Tesla's, along with lesser ones like the Volvo one that @Singuy just described. A kind of report card if you will. With all the competing systems out there currently and the ones yet to come, it would be a boon to consumers and I would much rather have the NHTSA create something similar than Consumer Reports.
Edit:. Responded to the wrong person! Sorry @SmokyPeat
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Gigapress
Trying to be less wrong
Good time to raise awareness that:
1) NHTSA has jurisdiction only over the USA.
Worst case regulatory scenario is FSD gets level 5 ready in America but then NHTSA prohibits it. However, Canada would get FSD some months later. Then Europe etc. Hard to keep justifying to American voters for long if it keeps working well elsewhere. It would really just be a minor delay in the grand scheme of things.
2) NHTSA regulations are required by law (Federal Register :: Request Access) to meet the need for motor vehicle safety and Tesla could fight any unreasonable rules in federal appellate court.
NHTSA, just as with other federal regulators like the FAA or FDA, is authorized to make rules only inasmuch as the actual law allows. NHTSA can’t just arbitrarily do whatever they want to satisfy political desires of the Executive Branch of the federal government. This is part of the system of checks and balances.
US law specifies that the goal is to “prescribe motor vehicle safety standards” so as to “reduce traffic accidents and deaths and injuries resulting from traffic accidents.” “Each standard shall be practicable, [and] meet the need for motor vehicle safety…”
“motor vehicle safety
(9) “motor vehicle safety” means the performance of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment in a way that protects the public against unreasonable risk of accidents occurring because of the design, construction, or performance of a motor vehicle, and against unreasonable risk of death or injury in an accident, and includes nonoperational safety of a motor vehicle.“
(underline emphasis mine)
“A person adversely affected by an order prescribing a motor vehicle safety standard under this chapter may apply for review of the order by filing a petition for review in the court of appeals of the United States…”
Tesla has all the data and I’d have to imagine this would be pretty straightforward to argue in court if it came to that. Since the goal is officially to reduce traffic accidents and resulting injuries and deaths, Tesla could present overwhelmingly conclusive data showing that level 5 FSD would do so. If and when Tesla gets FSD to that level of capability , they’ll have like 100M+ miles of recent data to show. I’m not an attorney so I might be misinterpreting this but that’s how I’m reading it.
1) NHTSA has jurisdiction only over the USA.
Worst case regulatory scenario is FSD gets level 5 ready in America but then NHTSA prohibits it. However, Canada would get FSD some months later. Then Europe etc. Hard to keep justifying to American voters for long if it keeps working well elsewhere. It would really just be a minor delay in the grand scheme of things.
2) NHTSA regulations are required by law (Federal Register :: Request Access) to meet the need for motor vehicle safety and Tesla could fight any unreasonable rules in federal appellate court.
NHTSA, just as with other federal regulators like the FAA or FDA, is authorized to make rules only inasmuch as the actual law allows. NHTSA can’t just arbitrarily do whatever they want to satisfy political desires of the Executive Branch of the federal government. This is part of the system of checks and balances.
US law specifies that the goal is to “prescribe motor vehicle safety standards” so as to “reduce traffic accidents and deaths and injuries resulting from traffic accidents.” “Each standard shall be practicable, [and] meet the need for motor vehicle safety…”
“motor vehicle safety
(9) “motor vehicle safety” means the performance of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment in a way that protects the public against unreasonable risk of accidents occurring because of the design, construction, or performance of a motor vehicle, and against unreasonable risk of death or injury in an accident, and includes nonoperational safety of a motor vehicle.“
(underline emphasis mine)
“A person adversely affected by an order prescribing a motor vehicle safety standard under this chapter may apply for review of the order by filing a petition for review in the court of appeals of the United States…”
Tesla has all the data and I’d have to imagine this would be pretty straightforward to argue in court if it came to that. Since the goal is officially to reduce traffic accidents and resulting injuries and deaths, Tesla could present overwhelmingly conclusive data showing that level 5 FSD would do so. If and when Tesla gets FSD to that level of capability , they’ll have like 100M+ miles of recent data to show. I’m not an attorney so I might be misinterpreting this but that’s how I’m reading it.
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Thank God NHTSA is only USA. Hopefully Canada gets it's own software updates
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
You could be correct but I don't remember that discussion.
Former Tesla CEO shares his thoughts on the company
Ousted Tesla cofounder Martin Eberhard sounds off on Elon Musk, how the company has changed, and the EV wars
While Elon Musk is sometimes referred to as the founder of Tesla, Martin Eberhard cofounded Tesla in 2003 with his friend Marc Tarpenning.www.businessinsider.com
The difference between Wozniak and Eberhard in a nutshell: Woz delivered.
He’s proved over and over in the years since that he’s a kook who shouldn’t be taken too seriously, but nobody doubts that he was a vital part of Apple in the beginning.
Eberhart was gone before their first product was out the door. Seems like the most generous thing you can say is he had some good ideas when it mattered but he failed to execute.
Interesting that the law states:
I would think that a review of all vehicles sold in the US with an augmented cruise control should have "motor vehicle safety standards" prescribed to them. Obvious these vary considerably, from just an adaptive CC to Level 2 systems like offered by Tesla, but if the AP and FSD are subject to a recall, surely some of the others should be as well. Certainly people have had issues with these and not just BEV's. Pardon my ignorance, but what are the systems from GM, Toyota, et al, rated at? Level 2? Is there a Level 1?
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Elon says many things, you know the phrase about history being written by the victors? I remember Elon insisting on lowering the door sill of the Roadster, a costly redesign which delayed the vehicle. Who knows how many other such events took place?
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