Tesla forced an update of my P85D to 2019.16.2

[wk057]

Just to add to this, I've been (initially) rejecting FW updates for as long as I've had my cars, although I do usually install the updates. And despite what most people will assume, it not because of new UI/UX.

I've been in software development and database engineering for my entire career, and I've seen all too many failed "updates" installed too quickly on all sorts of hardware or devices. Some even got bricked as a result (a few Teslas have too). So for my cars, I always take a "wait and see" attitude. I reject the updates until I've had a chance to read what everyone else says about them on the forums.. what new features are great, what got broken, what the UI is like, and of course, how much regen went down with each new release.

Once I'm satisfied that a release is stable and not too much was broken (there is something new broken in every single FW release from Tesla), I'll most likely install it. So, all I can say is that I am very well versed on how to reject all FW updates, and while there's always a tiny possibility that I did something wrong, I really don't think that's what happened here.

I also take the same conservative approach to updates for my phones, mobile apps, computers, software applications, Linux servers and packages, IoT devices, etc. More often than not, there's a new widespread X.Y release, and then days later, there's a X.Y.1 or X.Y.1.1 release to fix what X.Y broke. I'll let all the people who need to update constantly take the hit when a bad version gets released, and I'll just wait for the dust to settle, then install what's necessary.

To add to this........ this doesn't usually work for Tesla updates.

Let's say they release X.Y. X.Y gets staged on your car, causes the update popup.

Tomorrow, they release X.Y.1 to fix some bug in X.Y. Well, unless it was a critical issue that caused them to "hammer" all staged versions of X.Y, then when you hit install, even after the release of X.Y.1... you're going to install X.Y. Then maybe sometime soon after you'll get X.Y.1 staged... or not, who knows. Their updater selection is literally random. Aside from defined variables defined per release (like, this version should go to AP2 folks first, and such... or this country, whatever), they just punch in how many cars should get the update in a wave, and the system picks that many random cars that meet the criteria.

So... yeah, without being able to see which version is going to be installed before pressing install, this good practice is essentially thwarted by lack of that minimal transparency.

 

[emmz0r]

This is a fair point. However v9 was a drastic change from previous releases. v9 reminds me of... Window ME... which a lot of people disliked and stayed on Win7. MS still provided security updates etc for Win7 (and they sort of still do)... just as Tesla could.

However, I understand Tesla's resources are small... and this is likely the crux of the issue; v9 was designed for the 3... which now outsells the S/X by huge margins. The math tells them to continue to focus on the 3 landscape UI and just shoehorn it onto the now minority S/X portrait UI.

Reminds me more about Windows 7 to 8, where desktop users were forced into the tablet paradigm...

I think this photo tells all. It shows the head of UI development Pawel Pietryka doing work on an MS/MX MCU on a bench. Not in an actual driving car. Just as we always suspected. Complete disconnect from an actual driving UX. Which is ironic, because this is his exact quote: “Everyone knows good design needs to be functional, simple, intuitive. But more than anything it needs to deliver a great user experience.” Yeah, a great UX --- as long as you're driving a desk.

from: Work With Us | TESLA DESIGN STUDIO

To be fair you have to work like that to work efficiently during the development process. But yeah, it seems like not much testing is done by people is actually driving a car. I miss the v8 UI myself.

 

[sublimejackman]

Care to back the 90% up with facts?



Sure about that? When you said this earlier about the other members and never apologized:

I don't think like 95% of M3 ever had anything older than V9 (if they even ever had V8). Therefore, yes 90% of Tesla owners have never used V8.

I conceded the point yesterday that I had my facts wrong about how the software is developed and deployed. However, no I am not going to apologize. We are a bunch of whiny rich kids. I love whining about my Tesla problems as much as the next guy but really this is all first world problems of the first world problems.

 

[Bill Foster]

my god, if this is the biggest problem in your life RN, im jealous

 

[kavyboy]

I don't think like 95% of M3 ever had anything older than V9 (if they even ever had V8). Therefore, yes 90% of Tesla owners have never used V8.

I conceded the point yesterday that I had my facts wrong about how the software is developed and deployed. However, no I am not going to apologize. We are a bunch of whiny rich kids. I love whining about my Tesla problems as much as the next guy but really this is all first world problems of the first world problems.

Yep, agreed. But this is our forum, a forum for whiny rich kids. It's where we come, in part, to gripe about problems that most people would love to have. Politics and cancer and famine and wars and persecution have plenty of places on the internet. I need a haven that's not so burdensome on the soul. I image the forums here like a park with a bunch of people running around in sumo suits so seriously engaged in things that are pretty much inscrutable to passers by.
BTW: This has been a really good thread!

 

[sorka]

It sounds simple to just apply the safety related patches on the V8.1 codebase, but everyone who have ever worked in software development know it isn't. You will have to resolve conflicts and then test those new V8.1 builds. This will require a team of developers and beta-testers working on this. Who is going to pay for that?

The irony is that you actually make it sound simple when it's so much more complicated than that. Ask my how I know

 

[sublimejackman]

Yep, agreed. But this is our forum, a forum for whiny rich kids. It's where we come, in part, to gripe about problems that most people would love to have. Politics and cancer and famine and wars and persecution have plenty of places on the internet. I need a haven that's not so burdensome on the soul. I image the forums here like a park with a bunch of people running around in sumo suits so seriously engaged in things that are pretty much inscrutable to passers by.
BTW: This has been a really good thread!

Agreed. This has been a rather spirited conversation. I like that plays into a bunch of ideas. Like who really owns the car. How much control are we willing to give up for the sake of safety. What really defines a change for safety.

This is a good place to chat. My statement wasn't to offend per se, it was to drive home the stakes. People's lives are literally on the line with these updates. I wanted to contextualize how Tesla and us owners view the software that runs our vehicles.

 

[aerodyne]

Ok...lot has been written here...

First, sorry to hear this happened to the OP. Of all people to pick, why an early adopter who has done a lot for the Tesla community?

Second, Tesla should be able to confirm if they really did push out a release against owners will. This would be a huge issue for all of us.

Lastly, I have gotten used to life after V8. I think Hank and others will eventually.

 

[kavyboy]

The irony is that you actually make it sound simple when it's so much more complicated than that. Ask my how I know

I've been in places (OK, one) where it really is easy. Merge, commit it's all tied into a code review system and issue tracker is updated and the continuous integration is triggered, etc. I've been in others where somebody unilaterally decided to introduce a chicken dependency in C++ code and everybody else seemed to just reformat the source code at will. I'd rather take a beating than do another code merge there.
I'm betting Tesla has some chickens running around.

 

[sorka]

I've been in places (OK, one) where it really is easy. Merge, commit it's all tied into a code review system and issue tracker is updated and the continuous integration is triggered, etc. I've been in others where somebody unilaterally decided to introduce a chicken dependency in C++ code and everybody else seemed to just reformat the source code at will. I'd rather take a beating than do another code merge there.
I'm betting Tesla has some chickens running around.

Or someone makes the tiniest change and suddenly you have ^Ms at the end of every line because of the editor they used

When it's a large company, even seemingly simple changes can result in complicated endless internal politics....can but not always.

 

[Droschke]

I don't think like 95% of M3 ever had anything older than V9 (if they even ever had V8). Therefore, yes 90% of Tesla owners have never used V8.

Using the number of Model 3 owners to justify the claim seems to be inaccurate. Keep in mind, many of Model 3 owners are not new Tesla owners. They either previously owned (still own) Mode S/X and the Model 3 is a new addition or they are part of a family owned Tesla S/X and now a new M3 owner (parents owned S/X, son/daughter bought 3). In both cases, they are familiar with v8 and 9. But we can move on.

I conceded the point yesterday that I had my facts wrong about how the software is developed and deployed. However, no I am not going to apologize. We are a bunch of whiny rich kids. I love whining about my Tesla problems as much as the next guy but really this is all first world problems of the first world problems.

Yes, you finally conceded and that was a welcome move. But now including yourself in "a bunch of whiny rich kids". Still not good, but we can move on on this part as well.

An informative thread nevertheless.

 

[HankLloydRight]

What if there had been an emergency, you go to use your car to get to the hospital or whatever, and bam... it's in the middle of or just started an hour long forced update that you didn't approve and were not aware of? Now you're stuck. I don't know about you, but I'd definitely feel like Tesla would be liable if anything would happen to someone in such a case.

Even in a less serious scenario, where you just need to go somewhere... and Tesla has essentially locked your car down for an hour without your consent.

Small thread diversion:

Yeah, the late night run to the ER is pretty unlikely (but still possible). What's much more likely for me, is every year or two I take a trip to a small island off of Honduras for diving. I fly to the mainland first (SAP) and then take a tiny plane to the island. They only make this flight twice a week on Wednesday and Saturdays. If you miss the flight, you either have to wait 4 days for the next flight, charter a private plane (about $1k), or get the ferry (the next day) from a town (Le Ceiba) that's a 7 hour drive away through the mountains. So needless to say, it's really, really important to get to the mainland airport on time. In order to do that, I have to leave my house at 3:30am to get to EWR in time for a ~7:30am international flight. I can just imagine going down to my car at 3:30am, only to find that Tesla forced an update and my car is immobilized for some undetermined time. Maybe there's time to call an Uber or Lyft? I don't know. All I can say that if I missed my main flight to Honduras, and then missed the puddle jumper, and had to book a charter flight, you bet I'd be a lot more upset than just venting on TMC. And we all know there'd be NFW that I would schedule an update the night before I planned to leave for the airport at 3:30am.

But the same scenario could be true for anyone who needs to get to an airport and has dependent connections in order to make meetings for work, vacation plans, events, etc. It shouldn't be solely up to Tesla to ruin those plans just to force an update.

Even if Tesla wanted to be really heavy handed about it, it could easily pop up a message for three days or a week prior: "YOUR CAR HAS A MANDATORY UPDATE WHICH WILL BE INSTALLED AT 3AM E.T. SUNDAY, UNLESS YOU SCHEDULE ANYTIME BEFORE THEN. " Then at least I know what's happening and can plan accordingly.

Are you listening Tesla?

 

[verygreen]

Who? Details please.

there's @tedsk and @wk057 on the east coast.

@Ingineer on the west coast.

Besides it's much easier to avert this crisis with a rooted car obviously too. A lot more people can help with that.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Second, Tesla should be able to confirm if they really did push out a release against owners will.

Since it happened to two TMC veterans (@FlatSix911 and me) the same week, I do think this is a new policy being enforced. Or they're singling us out. Or both. It will be interesting if/when more people start reporting this.

 

[SMAlset]

....However I still don't understand why the MCU, AC, Radio and such all turn on when you open any door. Loading my kid into the back and the AC starts, the radio starts blaring and then I close the door, walk to the drivers door and it repeats the process. This is just dumb and lazy.....

I suspect the radio etc come on upon the door opening so that people know the car is effectively powered On.

 

[kavyboy]

Small thread diversion:

Yeah, the late night run to the ER is pretty unlikely (but still possible). What's much more likely for me, is every year or two I take a trip to a small island off of Honduras for diving. I fly to the mainland first (SAP) and then take a tiny plane to the island. They only make this flight twice a week on Wednesday and Saturdays. If you miss the flight, you either have to wait 4 days for the next flight, charter a private plane (about $1k), or get the ferry (the next day) from a town (Le Ceiba) that's a 7 hour drive away through the mountains. So needless to say, it's really, really important to get to the mainland airport on time. In order to do that, I have to leave my house at 3:30am to get to EWR in time for a ~7:30am international flight. I can just imagine going down to my car at 3:30am, only to find that Tesla forced an update and my car is immobilized for some undetermined time. Maybe there's time to call an Uber or Lyft? I don't know. All I can say that if I missed my main flight to Honduras, and then missed the puddle jumper, and had to book a charter flight, you bet I'd be a lot more upset than just venting on TMC. And we all know there'd be NFW that I would schedule an update the night before I planned to leave for the airport at 3:30am.

But the same scenario could be true for anyone who needs to get to an airport and has dependent connections in order to make meetings for work, vacation plans, events, etc. It shouldn't be solely up to Tesla to ruin those plans just to force an update.

Even if Tesla wanted to be really heavy handed about it, it could easily pop up a message for three days or a week prior: "YOUR CAR HAS A MANDATORY UPDATE WHICH WILL BE INSTALLED AT 3AM E.T. SUNDAY, UNLESS YOU SCHEDULE ANYTIME BEFORE THEN. " Then at least I know what's happening and can plan accordingly.

Are you listening Tesla?

Flight attendants and pilots, for another example I'm too familiar with, often have a very unpredictable schedule. Any flight you take, at any time of day, is most likely staffed by somebody who also had to make that flight, but had less time for planning it than you did. You can imagine the knock-on effects of being short-staffed.

 

[SMAlset]

....However, I understand Tesla's resources are small... and this is likely the crux of the issue; v9 was designed for the 3... which now outsells the S/X by huge margins. The math tells them to continue to focus on the 3 landscape UI and just shoehorn it onto the now minority S/X portrait UI.

And there’s also a chance the MS and MX’s screens may be more akin to the Model 3’s when they refresh the cars in the coming months...ie horizontal (and I wouldn’t bet on two). I know shocking thought but I could see this a possibility from a parts and development standpoint. Just my conjecture here however. We do know they are trying to pare things down for production and cost sake. And there’s the issues with the yellow borders and “The Drive” article that the screens were never designed for automotive use so would be Tesla’s expense if they get replaced, not the manufacturers. Uncertain if this is true but could explain things.

Unless you are also a Model 3 owner and now use to the screen there, if you thought v9 changes were “unfriendly” to use imagine getting one screen and a more limited screen real estate. I love our 17-inch screen and you can still have a split screen on it with v9 even if you don’t agree with the positioning, but split screen is not a likely possibility on my Model 3 screen.

Trading further in the thread than at the point I posted this I see a few people are of the opinion the screen will be landscape.

 

[SMAlset]

...For the record, I have electronic nag defeats on every one of my Tesla vehicles, and have well over 100,000 miles of nag free AP driving under my belt personally, with even more between my vehicles and other drivers. The "orange" (or in my case, electronic defeat device) doesn't lower safety at all, because the unneeded nags never improved safety in the first place. The only nags that were improving the usefulness of the system were the ones originally in v7.0, which appeared only when actually needed (when the car was about to be unsure of the path). The timed nags are completely pointless and do nothing whatsoever to improve safety. It's "safety theater" on Tesla's part....

Not saying you are but I wouldn’t lay the “blame” for the nags at Tesla’s feet. As you know as accidents occurred they were compelled to add ways to satisfy the governmental agencies on driver attentiveness in order to keep pushing forward with levels of autonomy.

I will say that if someone is doing something like checking an email or even dozing off while in the drivers seat, the nags should act like the rumble strips on the roadway that would focus your attention once again on the roadway since this isn’t a self-driving car. For anyone defeating them, I wouldn’t want to be in an accident where there were injuries or deaths and your car was partially or fully at fault.

 

[emmz0r]

Well with those phantom brakings, it's a rear-end waiting to happen. Then what?

Also, FSD owners were promised access to EAP. When's that happening? At least then we could provide some feedback, right?

 

[wk057]

Not saying you are but I wouldn’t lay the “blame” for the nags at Tesla’s feet. As you know as accidents occurred they were compelled to add ways to satisfy the governmental agencies on driver attentiveness in order to keep pushing forward with levels of autonomy.

I will say that if someone is doing something like checking an email or even dozing off while in the drivers seat, the nags should act like the rumble strips on the roadway that would focus your attention once again on the roadway since this isn’t a self-driving car. For anyone defeating them, I wouldn’t want to be in an accident where there were injuries or deaths and your car was partially or fully at fault.

Nah, this is PR BS. No government agency demanded anything from Tesla on the nags front. They added the nags to save face to pretend like they were doing something to combat the idiots who don't pay attention while using AP. As noted, the nags do nothing. They're nothing like the rumble strip example, since everyone I've ever seen use AP regularly on an unmodded car that has been doing so for a while "defeats" the nags by just mindlessly tugging the wheel occasionally or nudging it with a knee. This does nothing to focus their attention, nothing to prevent the problems that idiots have caused while using AP. It's just safety theater, and an annoyance to the rest of us who properly use the features.

As for the "I wouldn't want to be in an accident" part of your post... if you get into an accident where you are at fault.... you're at fault. You're the one driving, and who has the driver's license. It doesn't matter if you were using AP, cruise control, knee driving, whatever. Until responsibility is abdicated to Tesla under some yet-to-be-seen FSD future, any screw ups are the driver's fault. End of story.