Tesla DC charging network

[Norbert]

I've been giving the Tesla DC network some more thinking, but I really don't see how they are going to pay for that. 90kW of power, the monthly / yearly fee for just the power connection is HUGE!

That, however, has nothing to do with Tesla's new charging connector. It would be the same if it were using the Mennekes DC combo plug instead, which is being designed for >70 kW (but still far away from being a finished standard), meaning that european car manufacturers also plan, in the future, to support >70 kW.

 

[widodh]

That, however, has nothing to do with Tesla's new charging connector. It would be the same if it were using the Mennekes DC combo plug instead, which is being designed for >70 kW (but still far away from being a finished standard), meaning that european car manufacturers also plan, in the future, to support >70 kW.

True, but if Tesla wants to roll out a 90kW network on their own they are going to pay for it.

It could also be one of the reasons why the CHAdeMO chargers are also limited to 50kW?

 

[jcstp]

I just wonder why all this fuss!
In petrolstations you have diesel clean-diesel petrol95octane petrol98octane E85 biodiesel
So Chademo and tesla can easily live side by side I think!
They provide both electricity!
Making a high-current connection for one, only facilitates the instalation of the other!

do you see big trouble between the providers and users of the different oil-based energy?

 

[AndrewBissell]

I think a lot of this debate boils down to this:

We all probably think Tesla is an amazing car company - in fact THE amazing EV company.

But where there is fundamental tension is on whether Tesla is or can be a great EV charging infrastructure company.

Experience by myself, Kevin Sharpe and David Peilow says that Tesla finds it quite hard to adjust to the compromise and negotiation required to engage with sites they don't control to persuade them to host chargers. The UK HPC network wouldn't exist without David's immense tenacity and persuasive powers. Tesla in the UK could not have done this.

I believe it would take a great culture change within Tesla to successfully engage with developing and rolling out a charging network. I think if they MUST do it to be successful that they CAN make this change. Whether they will is anyone's guess at present (despite anything they have said about intending to roll out DC charging networks - until they realise they can't do it with "business as usual" I think its a dream).

I won't be taking a risk on it this time. With the Roadster it was bought knowing the best it could do would be 70A/17kW charging, and that there was no network. I was prepared to engage with efforts to create one. We were fortunate to be able to. I now know I won't willingly travel often for long distances at 1 hour driving = 1 hour charging rates. And I will not just hope that Tesla is going to deliver a widespread DC fast charge network.

So I'll be waiting to buy a Model S until the DC fast charge network is substantially all in place in Europe (and the rollout of the rest is clearly on track and unstoppable). Or maybe by then I'll have bought something else with equal utility that has a network earlier. We'll see.

 

[jcstp]

Only the future will tell what happens!

Anyhow, installing fast-charging makes lots more sense then all those charging-poles along the streets where your hair gets grey from waiting till the battery is full!

 

[rolosrevenge]

I think that Tesla would be very foolish to not have their DC charging for the Model S accept CHAdeMO and have their chargers compatible with CHAdeMO cars. Sure, 90 kW is great, but to not take advantage of all of the 50 kW charging stations that are being propagated seriously impedes the functionality of the Model S. Not to mention, the Leafs and MiEVs will be numbering in the 50,000 - 100,000 per year output compared to 20,000 of the Model S. Tesla doesn't have the volume to try and dictate the standards.

 

[TEG]

...I now know I won't willingly travel often for long distances at 1 hour driving = 1 hour charging rates...

From what I can tell, Tesla is now trying to promulgate the concept of charging times stated in miles-per-hour.
So their 90kW DC is "300 miles per hour charging" as it can fill a 300 mile range Model S (~90kW pack) in about an hour.

By the same token, HPC Roadster charging is approx 64 miles per hour charging (300*19.2/90).
I think that lines up with their quoted 3.5 hour charge time to get ~224 miles of range.
Further, that matches your statement of 1 hour charge for 1 hour driving, if you are driving around 64MPH...

30AMP J1772 charging would be 24 miles per hour charging (300*7.2/90).

 

[Dave EV]

From what I can tell, Tesla is now trying to promulgate the concept of charging times stated in miles-per-hour.
So their 90kW DC is "300 miles per hour charging" as it can fill a 300 mile range Model S (~90kW pack) in about an hour.

Right way to do it - since it's not often that one charges from an empty battery and requires a full charge all at once.

 

[vfx]

from what i can tell, tesla is now trying to promulgate the concept of charging times stated in miles-per-hour.
So their 90kw dc is "300 miles per hour charging" as it can fill a 300 mile range model s (~90kw pack) in about an hour.....

mphc

mpc?

 

[tomsax]

I just wonder why all this fuss!
In petrolstations you have diesel clean-diesel petrol95octane petrol98octane E85 biodiesel
So Chademo and tesla can easily live side by side I think!
They provide both electricity!
Making a high-current connection for one, only facilitates the instalation of the other!

do you see big trouble between the providers and users of the different oil-based energy?

There are two huge differences between oil-based fuel and electricity:

1. Oil is expensive compared to electricity used for transportation. Because oil is expensive, the cost of building a gas station can be recouped in profits. Still, the profit margins for gas station owners (at least in the US) is pretty small. Most of the profits go to the big oil companies and producers.

2. People don't have gas stations in their garages. Gas stations don't have to compete with the convenience of fueling at home, and can't be made obsolete by a network of car owners sharing their home gas pumps. 95% of our Roadster charging happens at home. For our local Roadster driving, and all of our RAV4-EV driving, it's 100%. (We'll see what happens with the LEAF, it's too early to tell. Our first three weeks, we did all of our charging in our garage with a 120V outlet.) Also, there's no such thing as a cheap gas station. Restaurants can't attract customers by putting in cheap gas pumps that slowly refuel your car while you eat dinner.

In the US, with an average of 21 MPG, figuring $4 per gallon, every car on the road driving 12,000 miles a year represents $2,285 in gross fuel revenue per year. An electric car getting 340 Wh per mile (wall-to-wheel) and paying the US average of 11 cents per kWh represents $450 in electricity costs per year, but most of that charging is done at home. Let's be generous and say that 20% of that is for road trips: that's $90 worth of electricity away from home per year.

How much will consumers be willing to pay for being able to conveniently drive beyond their single charge range? Level 2 stations are inexpensive and cheap to install, so they can be operated at low margins, or at a loss (free even) to attract customers. If you can get free or low-margin charging at 240V/70A while you eat a meal, or play at a park, or watch a movie, etc., how much would you be willing to pay to charge faster?

We have friends we've met through the Roadster community who just stop by our house when road tripping through the area so they can charge up for a couple of hours while we visit over a meal. When many of the people you know have charging stations in their garages, how much of your road-trip charging will turn into hanging out with friends and family?

At five times the cost of electricity, you break even compared to driving a 21-mpg gas burner (and still have to wait ten times as long to fast charge as pump gas). That's a ceiling of $450 per car per year, compared to $2,285 per gas car, and relies on some pretty optimistic assumptions. The true average annual expenditures for away-from-home charging would likely be much smaller. Meanwhile, fast charge stations get squeezed from below by demand charge rates for electricity that greatly increase the cost of electricity at high power levels.

Having multiple charging standards that require stations to install multiple sets of equipment is not likely to gain traction in what will ultimately be a very low-margin, low-volume business.

 

[Norbert]

Let's be generous and say that 20% of that is for road trips:

I agree and think it will be less than 10%. However that only means that a charger can be shared by more cars. (Keep in mind that Tesla's goal is to sell mass-market cars.)

Having a standard that is specific to 90 kW-capable cars may even be an advantage since it means that the charger will not be occupied by cars charging at a lower rate, and therefor allow more turnover and a better return on the demand charges (assuming a certain use level which should be expected with mass-market cars).

 

[neroden]

I have to agree that it will be a fairly small market.

...which is why the most important locations for a DC fast charging "network" are those which enable model S owners to take major intercity trips between really huge cities which are otherwise too far away. I worked out that Toledo, Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia would enable NY-Chicago trips, as well as trips from an enormous number of other cities along the way to NY or Chicago. And these are trips long enough that level 2 charging requires an extra overnight, but level 3 doesn't, which will matter to a lot of people.

This has got to be worth it. The cost of building and maintaining three fast charging stations, to be able to advertise an immense corridor of accessibility by model S -- to enable the majority of business and weekend trips.

The only question is, can Tesla actually carry this out competently? So far their store strategy is not being carried out well in the US -- the stores / service centers themselves are fine, but they have been very bad at rolling out national coverage. I measured to make sure I was in driving distance of a Tesla store, and I am (barely), but if I were in Ohio, I'd probably decide that the service centers were just too far away -- the Ranger mileage charge starts to add up. I doubt anyone in Hawaii would buy a Tesla right now unless they really had money to burn, because the Ranger charge must be ludicrous.

EDIT: as a small thought, people have worried about conflict between different people trying to charge.

Well, for level 3 charging I'm fine with making reservations to charge! This is for trips of well over 300 miles (one way!), I'm going to have the whole thing scheduled and planned anyway.

 

[VolkerP]

The Tesla Fast DC charger consists of 9 modular units each 10kW. The general assumption is that input is 3 phase AC, and one phase gets distributed to 3 units. With 1000 chargers planned for US "arterial" highways and ramp up of Model S production, that's 34,000 units to produce up to and including 2013.

Suggestion: Tesla should redesign the 10kW unit to take 3 phase input. This would allow to size the fast DC charger up and down in steps of 10kW instead of 30kW and solve the problem of slow home charging in countries with 3 phase AC.

 

[tomsax]

Having a standard that is specific to 90 kW-capable cars may even be an advantage since it means that the charger will not be occupied by cars charging at a lower rate, and therefor allow more turnover and a better return on the demand charges (assuming a certain use level which should be expected with mass-market cars).

Demand is an easy problem to solve: build more stations and/or set a premium rate on the 90 kW chargers so that lower rate cars will prefer 50 kW stations. Lack of demand is a bigger problem. If Model S used the same connector as other cars, then Model S owners would get access to mass-market 50 kW stations while also driving installation of faster stations with more profitable billing models. Which is worse: occasionally waiting 25 minutes for a LEAF to charge or not having any charging above Level 2? Model S could fit in, and stand out.

 

[jcstp]

I think fast-charging will be only along Highways!
On other places it does not make sense I guess!
In contrary to ice-cars who need petrolstations in every village!
Watch petrol-stations along highways! People use them too eventhough they can "charge" around the corner!
How many % of ice-car users use petrolstations along the highway? 10% ?
Not much more then the fast-chargingnetwork will be used I guess!

Along highways, petrolstations have often shops & restaurants!

I guess a fast-chargingstation will not only be evaluated by it's cost, but probably also by its profit-possibility in other areas!

I do not think installing only one "standard" and not the other will cut their profits by a lot!
surely when installing them, costs the same!
They will just evaluate the number of possible users to decide how many of each to install!

 

[Norbert]

Demand is an easy problem to solve: build more stations and/or set a premium rate on the 90 kW chargers so that lower rate cars will prefer 50 kW stations.

Tesla has indicated the stations will be free initially, and not even have card readers. Who wants them to be so expensive that "lower rate cars" can't pay for them?

Lack of demand is a bigger problem. If Model S used the same connector as other cars, then Model S owners would get access to mass-market 50 kW stations while also driving installation of faster stations with more profitable billing models. Which is worse: occasionally waiting 25 minutes for a LEAF to charge or not having any charging above Level 2? Model S could fit in, and stand out.

We'll also need some chargers in places where there is little demand, and we'll want even those to be 90 kW. In fact, that is a reason why it will be good to have car companies involved in building an infrastructure: their business model does not depend on making each and every charger a profit center of its own.

There are certainly advantages in having the same connector. However, there is also an advantage or two in having a different one, and the above is one of them. But that should perhaps be discussed in the "connector" thread (except that thread is occupied by the 3-phase question)...

 

[Norbert]

I think fast-charging will be only along Highways!
On other places it does not make sense I guess!

I'd expect, for example, that eventually, every larger parking structure and parking lot will also have fast chargers.

Fast chargers also make sense where you want to serve more cars with a limited number of parking spaces, since then the cars don't have to park there for a long time to get the charge they want or need.

Last but not least, many may prefer to make stop in a city when traveling.

So eventually, when EVs will have a certain significant percentage of all cars, fast chargers will be more or less everywhere, just not on every parking spot.

 

[jcstp]

So eventually, when EVs will have a certain significant percentage of all cars, fast chargers will be more or less everywhere, just not on every parking spot.

What I think also!

 

[jaanton]

A post over at the mynissanleaf.com site claims that Tesla is building a DC fast charge at Harris Ranch.

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Harris Ranch (California I-5 at Coalinga) Update

 

[TEG]

That would actually make a lot of sense since parts of Tesla are in LA and the rest in the SF bay area. Doing long distance MAPs (Mileage Accumulation Programs) with 300 mile range Model S prototypes, one would need one recharge stop to get between SF and LA with Harris Ranch basically being in the middle.

But thinking to myself, they do have the Fremont factory test track now, so they could run Model S prototypes in circles day and night if they need...