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Tesla autopilot HW3

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Let's wait for the software to catch up to HW3 before we start looking to HW4.

But, can't HW4 be a HW upgrade of Sensors and not the computer?

That way we can get things like a 360 degree down facing camera to fix the toddler problem with Smart Summon and Smart Park.

Then maybe some side/corner radar to add some redundancy to the automatic lane changes.

Hopefully I'll get a good look at a Model Y one of these days at a Supercharger to see if I can spot any obvious hardware changes to the AP sensor suite. I haven't seen anything so far.
 
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Nor did I say it did. What I listed were the domains where Tesla has the most vehicles (one definition of leading).

Is Waymo already driverless? This article from three days ago states they are not yet.
Waymo tells riders to get ready for fully driverless rides

The problem with this whole argument about Waymo being self-driving is that for the foreseeable future they will always have some kind of human oversight while the car is driving. Just like Tesla requires human oversight to use Smart Summon.

To do otherwise would cause too much liability. The public simply isn't ready for self-driving cars, and all the companies in the game with exception to Tesla are being extremely cautious. Waymo doesn't care about how technically advanced their vehicle is. They will not free the reigns on it. The fact that it's google is their biggest weakness. They'll be some major outcry when they have their first at fault accident that gets someone killed.

I'm not away of any truly driverless vehicle on a public road in the US that is truly what I'd call a robotaxi. Where it's allowed to drive without a human safety driver at the wheel or monitoring the vehicle remotely.

Now I'm not saying Smart Summon is anything like what Waymo does, and it certainly can't be compared to it. But, regardless of it's faults it has to still be considered self-driving as the car is doing the driving. Sure it might totally suck, and it might be terrifying to experience as a passenger. But, it's still self-driving.

It also doesn't truly have 100% human oversight. It simply places 100% of the responsibility on the human while on average the human can only really see 80% of what's going on near the car.

I have a bit of love/hate view of Tesla when it comes to EAP/FSD features.

I love that they're being so caviler about it. I'm firmly in the camp of kill a few hundred of a few years in exchange for saving tens of thousands per year for decades. We have to start somewhere.

But, Tesla seems unwilling to truly build a system that learns from mistakes.

We can't tell it about a map error when on NoA
We can't tell it that it's path sucks when doing Smart Summon, and they should update their maps to improve it.

Tesla isn't honest to the user about the map it's using. Tesla shows the Google Map to the user, but internally it has some OpenMaps thing that isn't anywhere close to what the google map is like.

So I fear Tesla will kill people without ever saving anyone.

Well except this poor guy from having to Uber home.

I freed my Tesla from a locked garage with Smart Summon! : teslamotors

I think we just have to get used to small successes in the L2 to L4 world, and temporarily forget about L5.

In that spirit I'm not aware of any other vehicle that's sold to consumer today can pull off what happened in that article.
 
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But, can't HW4 be a HW upgrade of Sensors and not the computer?

That way we can get things like a 360 degree down facing camera to fix the toddler problem with Smart Summon and Smart Park.

Then maybe some side/corner radar to add some redundancy to the automatic lane changes.

Hopefully I'll get a good look at a Model Y one of these days at a Supercharger to see if I can spot any obvious hardware changes to the AP sensor suite. I haven't seen anything so far.

More likely that HW4 will come out with the Plaid MS than the MY IMO. MS and MX are due for some pretty hefty updates, and I can't image they would launch the Plaid MS without HW4 (if it ever becomes a thing)/new interior/CCS charging/etc.
 
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2962EBFA-FE47-41DB-973A-37074A7B47D7.jpeg


Steve Sasson, he couldn’t sell Kodak in his new digital camera.

Technology evolves.
 
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But, can't HW4 be a HW upgrade of Sensors and not the computer?

That way we can get things like a 360 degree down facing camera to fix the toddler problem with Smart Summon and Smart Park.

Then maybe some side/corner radar to add some redundancy to the automatic lane changes.

Hopefully I'll get a good look at a Model Y one of these days at a Supercharger to see if I can spot any obvious hardware changes to the AP sensor suite. I haven't seen anything so far.

Yes, it could be. I was just thinking of the computer part since we know from Autonomy Investor Day that Tesla has a 2nd gen FSD computer planned for after the AP3 computer.

In terms of additional sensors, it is impossible to really know at this point. The Model Y reveal did not mention any new sensors. But that does not mean that Tesla can't change their mind before final production. And it is always possible that a few years from now, Tesla could unveil a refresh of their entire line with additional radars or cameras. Technology is always evolving. It is unlikely that Tesla will use the current sensor suite forever. On the other hand, Tesla is still claiming the current sensors + new computer are good enough so it seems that Tesla will do everything they can to try to make FSD work with the current sensors + new computer. Tesla probably does not want to spend the extra money now on additional sensors. Tesla may try to squeeze as many "FSD" features out of the current sensors + new computer as possible before they give in and upgrade the sensors.

Just guessing, but I think Tesla will try to deliver a first version of FSD with HW3. But maybe 2-3 years from now, I would not be shocked if Tesla unveiled their "FSD 2.0" hardware that did have additional sensors like extra cameras and extra radar (I am secretly hoping that Tesla adds LIDAR too). Personally, I think additional radar and LIDAR is an absolute must to get to true reliable L4/5 autonomous driving.
 
The problem with this whole argument about Waymo being self-driving is that for the foreseeable future they will always have some kind of human oversight while the car is driving. Just like Tesla requires human oversight to use Smart Summon.
This is a very extreme definition of autonomy. I doubt there will ever be autonomous vehicles with no remote connectivity. Not until the robots take over and eliminate the humans at least. Haha.
 
My AP 2.0 ECU died about 2 months ago.

As my X P100D was 2000 mi out of warranty, I decided to forgo the AP 2.0 replacement, and wait for FSD upgrade.

Wish that Tesla would prioritize faulty AP ECU retrofits, as I'm flying blind right now (Cruise Control unavailable) etc.
 
This is a very extreme definition of autonomy. I doubt there will ever be autonomous vehicles with no remote connectivity. Not until the robots take over and eliminate the humans at least. Haha.

I don't think it's really that extreme because it goes hand in hand with ownership.

Ownership is why people are WAY more excited about Tesla than they are about Waymo.

Where they see Tesla as adding automation capabilities to something they own or can own, and will continue to be that way as it becomes more autonomous.

It's for that reason that I pay attention to what MobileEye does, and what Tesla does. Those are the two big players in the market for cars that people will actually own. I know that it's highly like that my next car will have one of those two solutions.

Where with Waymo I can at most simply experience it.

The fear with Tesla or MobileEye or any other "offline" solution is they might be a lie.

The only way I can wrap my head around autonomous driving working is as a service. It's a service provided to you by the infrastructure, the vehicle maker, the humans remotely monitoring, and the connectivity provider.

I don't see the ownership model working. In the early years autonomous driving will be too iterative as technology evolves, and it spreads out from geofenced areas. Infrastructure wise all the stop lights have to revamped to support connecting with cars to optimize traffic flow. Having autonomous cars without it would just cause grid lock. Having it as a service allows for all the players to get paid. It also allows each aspect of the system to iterate where old technology is decommissioned.

Despite my cynicism I'm still rooting for Tesla, MobileEye, and potentially other non-fleet players.

Sure Tesla has remote connectivity, but to my knowledge they're not planning on any major oversight of the vehicle nor will it be a requirement for self-driving. Well unless it's Elon has some secret plans to use the SpaceX network to connect to Tesla vehicles. Part of me thinks it's obvious that will happen, but Elon claims it's not meant for it and won't work.

Tesla is basically the wild west
Waymo is mothers against their kids doing anything fun
 
My AP 2.0 ECU died about 2 months ago.

As my X P100D was 2000 mi out of warranty, I decided to forgo the AP 2.0 replacement, and wait for FSD upgrade.

Wish that Tesla would prioritize faulty AP ECU retrofits, as I'm flying blind right now (Cruise Control unavailable) etc.

Ugh, that sucks.

They're going to have tens of thousands of AP 2.0 computers laying around in 6-12 months.

As to prioritizing I absolutely agree with you that they should prioritize AP 2.0 people as the first ones to go. But, we don't know what the priority is right now. Right now they're just doing random testing, and picking "top fan" people as guinea pigs.
 
I don't think it's really that extreme because it goes hand in hand with ownership.

Ownership is why people are WAY more excited about Tesla than they are about Waymo.

Where they see Tesla as adding automation capabilities to something they own or can own, and will continue to be that way as it becomes more autonomous.

It's for that reason that I pay attention to what MobileEye does, and what Tesla does. Those are the two big players in the market for cars that people will actually own. I know that it's highly like that my next car will have one of those two solutions.

Where with Waymo I can at most simply experience it.

The fear with Tesla or MobileEye or any other "offline" solution is they might be a lie.

The only way I can wrap my head around autonomous driving working is as a service. It's a service provided to you by the infrastructure, the vehicle maker, the humans remotely monitoring, and the connectivity provider.

I don't see the ownership model working. In the early years autonomous driving will be too iterative as technology evolves, and it spreads out from geofenced areas. Infrastructure wise all the stop lights have to revamped to support connecting with cars to optimize traffic flow. Having autonomous cars without it would just cause grid lock. Having it as a service allows for all the players to get paid. It also allows each aspect of the system to iterate where old technology is decommissioned.

Despite my cynicism I'm still rooting for Tesla, MobileEye, and potentially other non-fleet players.

Sure Tesla has remote connectivity, but to my knowledge they're not planning on any major oversight of the vehicle nor will it be a requirement for self-driving. Well unless it's Elon has some secret plans to use the SpaceX network to connect to Tesla vehicles. Part of me thinks it's obvious that will happen, but Elon claims it's not meant for it and won't work.

Tesla is basically the wild west
Waymo is mothers against their kids doing anything fun
You're right that private ownership of level 5 autonomous vehicles doesn't really make any sense. That's why Musk says that Tesla will no longer sell cars once FSD is working.
Personally I think Tesla should focus on trying to get a Level 3 highway system working (similar to the Audi/MobilEye vaporware Traffic Jam Pilot).
 
With a general artificial intelligence (or human level), you would not need to develop self-driving at all. You'd just need to train it to a level of human maturity (eg 18-22 years of life simulation), and then send it to a regular driving school for 40 hours where instructors just tell/teach it how to drive.

Obviously HW3 is not anywhere near this level which is why a lot of specialized work is required. It's like teaching a mouse how to drive, it needs hundreds of years of specialized training material and a good software 1.0 framework to do decent driving.

General AI is like the holy grail where a machine can do anything humans can. Nobody knows when that will happen.
 
The problem with this whole argument about Waymo being self-driving is that for the foreseeable future they will always have some kind of human oversight while the car is driving. Just like Tesla requires human oversight to use Smart Summon.

To do otherwise would cause too much liability. The public simply isn't ready for self-driving cars, and all the companies in the game with exception to Tesla are being extremely cautious. Waymo doesn't care about how technically advanced their vehicle is. They will not free the reigns on it. The fact that it's google is their biggest weakness. They'll be some major outcry when they have their first at fault accident that gets someone killed.

You do know that Waymo already announced that they're about to start doing trips without safety drivers, right? And that Waymo hasn't been part of Google since late 2016? :)


You're right that private ownership of level 5 autonomous vehicles doesn't really make any sense. That's why Musk says that Tesla will no longer sell cars once FSD is working.

I think that's a rather naïve way to look at the market, personally. For people in urban areas, full self driving means you don't need to own a car, but most people who live there already don't. They take an Uber/Lyft/Yellow Cab car or use public transit. For people in rural areas, there's no way in you-know-where that a self-driving service would replace personal cars, because too many people drive too far, and everybody is going into a city in the morning, and out of a city in the evening, and nobody wants to wait an extra hour because all the cars are already taking someone.

I fully expect self-driving cars to replace taxis. And for some percentage of people, they will replace personally owned cars, but only if the cost of the taxi service ends up being less than the cost of owning a car. But for a decent percentage of people, that won't be the case.

Also, there's something to be said about having a car that is actually yours. I can't imagine taking a taxi around every day, even if it were free, because I drive around with the back of my car loaded up with musical instruments, music, laptop bag, etc. It would be a huge hassle to have to constantly load and unload all of that stuff. At least four days a week, I'd end up having to keep the meter running for a minimum of five hours at a time just to avoid going completely nuts, and even that would still require loading and unloading everything twice on three of those days (and possibly more). Short of the car having a detachable trunk section or something, I just can't see a shared vehicle ever working for me, nor can I see myself making money by letting anyone else use my car, for the same reasons.

I think folks drastically overestimate how disruptive self-driving tech will be in terms of private car ownership. People who live in relatively dense areas where ride sharing is practical are already using it pretty heavily if they can, and people who don't or can't are not going to suddenly find that it works just because the lack of a driver makes it cost a little less. So the only people who would switch are the ones who only drive a car because they can't afford to use ride sharing. Given that approximately none of those folks are in the market for a new car anyway, I'd be amazed if self-driving taxis made more than a single-digit percentage difference in car sales.

What it will do is eliminate taxis, truck drivers, pizza delivery people, and other entire categories of service workers — ironically, mostly people who would use ride sharing but can't afford it, which, of course, is likely to make the impact even smaller.
 
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You do know that Waymo already announced that they're about to start doing trips without safety drivers, right? And that Waymo hasn't been part of Google since late 2016?

The point of my post wasn't about safety drivers, but remote monitoring. That the vehicles would always been remotely monitored. They claim they don't have the ability to control the vehicles remotely, but I'd be surprised if they don't have a way to give assistance to the vehicle remotely if some issue comes up.

In any case Waymo is being very careful with it, and rolling it out slowly. It certainly marks a unique moment in history as it's the first ride share that I'm aware of that will be without a safety driver. Obviously remote monitoring will have latency so the autonomous part has to be really good with real-time stuff. But, it doesn't have to be so good at dealing with human idiocy for when humans do weird things in front of it and the car is going "WTF do I do now". It can always call home for that.

I'm not sure why you think Waymo isn't part of Google. It's a subsidiary of Alphabet, and Alphabet is Google. It's like trying to say Oculus isn't part of Facebook.
 
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The point of my post wasn't about safety drivers, but remote monitoring. That the vehicles would always been remotely monitored. They claim they don't have the ability to control the vehicles remotely, but I'd be surprised if they don't have a way to give assistance to the vehicle remotely if some issue comes up.

I would imagine that if the car gets stuck and can't move, it reports in, and they would send someone to pick you up, but they almost certainly aren't going to be monitoring it in the sense of "watching the cameras in real time," because that would cost them a hundred bucks a ride just for the cell service bill. :D


I'm not sure why you think Waymo isn't part of Google. It's a subsidiary of Alphabet, and Alphabet is Google. It's like trying to say Oculus isn't part of Facebook.

Oculus is directly owned by Facebook. To use an analogy:

Nest : Google :: Oculus : Facebook
Waymo : Google :: Kraft : Marlboro

(Yes, I know that Philip Morris split, but you get the point.)

Waymo and Google are basically operated as entirely separate companies, with separate staff, separate interviewing process, separate management, etc. The only thing they have in common is a few people at the top who manage the $$$. Now does that result in better integration between the technologies developed by both companies? I have no idea. But it certainly is no more guaranteed to occur than tobacco-flavored macaroni and cheese. By contrast, typically when one company actually acquires another company, the teams end up integrated, the management ends up integrated, and there's a lot of synergy involved. It's a completely different dynamic.
 
Waymo and Google are basically operated as entirely separate companies, with separate staff, separate interviewing process, separate management, etc.

You do realize that I wasn't talking about how they were operated.

I was talking about public perception which is extremely important to Autonomous Vehicles.

The public, and the media will quickly associate whatever happens to Waymo with Google.
 
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would imagine that if the car gets stuck and can't move, it reports in, and they would send someone to pick you up, but they almost certainly aren't going to be monitoring it in the sense of "watching the cameras in real time," because that would cost them a hundred bucks a ride just for the cell service bill.

You don't really need live camera feeds in this day, and age.

You just have descriptors of the scene.

Like lets say some idiot is blocking the car, and yelling at it.

The remote operators can give the car instructions on what to do.

I am a little worried about humans messing with autonomous cars, and bullying them.
 
General AI is like the holy grail where a machine can do anything humans can. Nobody knows when that will happen.

Agreed. Though when it does happen, we humans might become a lot less relevant.. the increase in AI’s ability to learn and “think” means it will surpass our intelligence quickly, and go from a point where it’s vastly inferior to a human brain to vastly superior to it within a short amount of time. Not sure I’ll be around to witness it, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
 
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