Tax Bill and EV Tax Credit Discussion

[mspohr]

Every morning on the radio and through EMail/Website that SCE is pushing EVs. However, the reality for the consumer is different. They are making adoption more difficult in practice. I am currently (har) in a battle over this.

Press releases are for PR. Tariff changes to increase the cost of power for EVSEs are for profits at the expensive of adoption.

Sure, with the new tariffs it's better for the utilities to have more EVs on the grid, but it's simply a higher profit margin they are after.
By endorsing tax-based rebates and customer-funded utility rebates, but in the long game, the utilities want to charge (har) more for EV kWh's by measuring charging by kW, not kWh, to milk a new cash cow. Fast charging is a BIG money maker.

They can sell their surplus power in the AM at several times the market rate because of EV technology.

I think you have missed the point.
"Managing the grid" is the key point here. I am aware of your rants about demand charges but these are for peak loads and do not apply to night time charging. Most utilities have reduced or even free charging at night since this helps manage the grid when demand is low. Adoption of EVs charging at night will be very helpful to utilities and that is why they are encouraging adoption.

Your personal issues with demand charges and your cynicism are irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[mspohr]

Electric Utilities want EVs!
From TFA:
For years, that market barely registered on utilities' radar. As EVs find growing success, utilities are building charging infrastructure and arranging generous rebates. Pacific Gas and Electric, Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric, and New Jersey's PSE&G have partnered with carmakers to offer thousands of dollars in rebates for BMW, Nissan, and other brands. Now utilities are asking Congress for help as they attempt to keep tapping into EV demand. A collection of 36 of the nation's largest utilities wrote a letter (PDF) to congressional leadership on March 13, asking for a lift on the cap on EV tax credits. The signatories' include California's Pacific Gas & Electric, New York's Consolidated Edison, the southeast's Duke Energy Company, and others covering almost every state. At the moment, Americans who buy electric vehicles receive a $7,500 federal tax credit (along with some state incentives) for each vehicle.

 

[abasile]

All the more reason I got a big fat 12kw solar system and 3 powerwalls. My way of giving SDG&E the big middle finger.

It's great to see the utility companies lobbying to increase the number of EVs. However, I'm thankful that they don't have a real monopoly anymore. The more they jack up the rates (on the TOU-A plan, our nighttime rate with SCE is about $0.16/kWh), the more they'll motivate us to generate our own energy...

 

[bkp_duke]

It's great to see the utility companies lobbying to increase the number of EVs. However, I'm thankful that they don't have a real monopoly anymore. The more they jack up the rates (on the TOU-A plan, our nighttime rate with SCE is about $0.16/kWh), the more they'll motivate us to generate our own energy...

They still effectively have a monopoly. Unlike when I lived in TX, where we could chose from literally dozens of companies to provide power, we are locked into a single provider in CA based upon where we live.

TX has such a low penetration of solar primarily because power is DIRT cheap out there, making the payback for a solar system incredibly long. Sure, there are some things that make the utilities unfriendly to solar like poor net metering laws, but when power is that cheap, solar doesn't look that attractive.

When we lived in TX, our all-in power rate 5 years ago was 7-9c/kWh, all day, every day. No TOU, no tiers.

 

[mspohr]

They still effectively have a monopoly. Unlike when I lived in TX, where we could chose from literally dozens of companies to provide power, we are locked into a single provider in CA based upon where we live.

TX has such a low penetration of solar primarily because power is DIRT cheap out there, making the payback for a solar system incredibly long. Sure, there are some things that make the utilities unfriendly to solar like poor net metering laws, but when power is that cheap, solar doesn't look that attractive.

When we lived in TX, our all-in power rate 5 years ago was 7-9c/kWh, all day, every day. No TOU, no tiers.

Texas has lots of wind power so some utilities are giving away free electricity at night.

 

[MIT_S60]

It's great to see the utility companies lobbying to increase the number of EVs. However, I'm thankful that they don't have a real monopoly anymore. The more they jack up the rates (on the TOU-A plan, our nighttime rate with SCE is about $0.16/kWh), the more they'll motivate us to generate our own energy...

You made me go check the TOU rate tables since I haven't checked what the TOU-D-A rates are in a while. It looks like they've gone down to $0.12/kWh in the summer ($0.13/kWh in the winter). I do see now that SCE has 6 different TOU rate plans, up from the 3 plans it had when I switched to TOU. I haven't looked at the others in a while.

So I took a look at the TOU-D-4-9PM and TOU-D-5-8PM plans. These fall in line with what I've heard SCE wants to move to in the future (by 2020) when they force all customers to switch to TOU plans. Since solar is causing excess production during the daytime and EVs are increasing consumption in the nighttime, they want to switch around the rates. The most expensive will be in the evening when the sun sets and solar production declines (as they are firing up the natural gas). The cheapest will actually be in the daytime due to solar production (which is great for air conditioning usage). And the most expensive will be in the nighttime to collect on the increased consumption due to electric vehicles. Note the cheapest rate on this plan is $0.22/kWh in the summer ($0.17/kWh in the winter), but that's from 8am-4pm while you are at work, thus unable to charge your electric vehicle at home since you're not at home. If you want to charge overnight you're looking at $0.22/kWh in the summer ($0.28/kWh in the winter). Thus, charging your car at home will become MUCH more expensive (unless you can shift your charging to the daytime). This would be fine if workplaces had ample chargers for charging during the day, but there is no way most businesses in SCE territories will have enough chargers for all EVs by 2020.

 

[nwdiver]

It's great to see the utility companies lobbying to increase the number of EVs. However, I'm thankful that they don't have a real monopoly anymore. The more they jack up the rates (on the TOU-A plan, our nighttime rate with SCE is about $0.16/kWh), the more they'll motivate us to generate our own energy...

Yeah... but then they literally just charge us for our own electricity. Sure, you can go off-grid but far fewer people are willing to do this.

Think charging people for energy that they produce and immediately consume is absurd? Please let the people doing this know.

Evan Evans is one of those people;
Director of Regulatory Pricing and Analysis Xcel Energy
(806) 378-2930

Tell him to repeal Xcels solar tax

 

[abasile]

You made me go check the TOU rate tables since I haven't checked what the TOU-D-A rates are in a while. It looks like they've gone down to $0.12/kWh in the summer ($0.13/kWh in the winter).

You're right. I just checked our most recent SCE bill for our home, and it's about $0.12/kWh on TOU-D-A during "super off peak".

However, on another property, we pay $0.17/kWh in Tier 1 on SCE's standard, tiered residential rate plan. I must have confused the two. That said, $0.17/kWh isn't cheap, and it only goes up from there.

 

[MIT_S60]

You're right. I just checked our most recent SCE bill for our home, and it's about $0.12/kWh on TOU-D-A during "super off peak".

However, on another property, we pay $0.17/kWh in Tier 1 on SCE's standard, tiered residential rate plan. I must have confused the two. That said, $0.17/kWh isn't cheap, and it only goes up from there.

Take a look at the TOU-D-4-9PM and TOU-D-5-8PM plans. If they phase out TOU-D-A and TOU-D-B, owning an electric vehicle will get quite a bit more expensive most likely.

 

[mspohr]

I live in an area in the mountains of California with a small utility, Liberty Utilities. Their rates are:
D-1 (flat rate) 0.126 base and 0.151 for usage above 19 kWh/day
D-1 TOU 0.151 peak and 0.100 off peak
They also have an EV rate of 0.086 off peak
They also have a provision for those on TOU that if your cost under TOU is greater than your cost would have been under flat rate, they will refund the difference.

However, they have a rule that if you have solar, you can't be on a TOU tariff so I can't take advantage of the TOU and EV rates. My net metering is all at the 0.126 base/0.151 rate.

I should also note that they have a very generous subsidy for installing solar. They send you a check for $1.20 per installed watt.

 

[abasile]

Take a look at the TOU-D-4-9PM and TOU-D-5-8PM plans. If they phase out TOU-D-A and TOU-D-B, owning an electric vehicle will get quite a bit more expensive most likely.

Hmm, yes, I see that those plans charge $0.22/kWh during the night when we would normally recharge our EVs!

Hopefully, SCE will keep TOU-D-A for a while. But I can see them reducing the nighttime discounts once there are many more EVs charging at night.

 

[Merrill]

Electric Utilities want EVs!
From TFA:
For years, that market barely registered on utilities' radar. As EVs find growing success, utilities are building charging infrastructure and arranging generous rebates. Pacific Gas and Electric, Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric, and New Jersey's PSE&G have partnered with carmakers to offer thousands of dollars in rebates for BMW, Nissan, and other brands. Now utilities are asking Congress for help as they attempt to keep tapping into EV demand. A collection of 36 of the nation's largest utilities wrote a letter (PDF) to congressional leadership on March 13, asking for a lift on the cap on EV tax credits. The signatories' include California's Pacific Gas & Electric, New York's Consolidated Edison, the southeast's Duke Energy Company, and others covering almost every state. At the moment, Americans who buy electric vehicles receive a $7,500 federal tax credit (along with some state incentives) for each vehicle.

If they really wanted EV’s what does the EVB second meter rate keep going up.

 

[mspohr]

Another perspective
There’s a new effort to remove the EV tax credit cap just as Tesla and GM are about to hit it

GOP politicians are worried about US manufacturers having a disadvantage.

 

[SageBrush]

"Managing the grid" is the key point here. I am aware of your rants about demand charges but these are for peak loads and do not apply to night time charging. Most utilities have reduced or even free charging at night since this helps manage the grid when demand is low. Adoption of EVs charging at night will be very helpful to utilities and that is why they are encouraging adoption.

Sorry for jumping into the middle of a discussion, but don't demand charges affect all the kWh used, not just for the time when load is high ?

 

[bkp_duke]

Sorry for jumping into the middle of a discussion, but don't demand charges affect all the kWh used, not just for the time when load is high ?

No, they are a separate charge. Demand is essentially the peak power draw (i.e. demand from the utility) over the billing period.

Great explanation (from a power company) here:
https://www.northwesternenergy.com/docs/default-source/documents/E-Programs/E-demandcharges.pdf

 

[mspohr]

U.S. Utilities Look To Electric Cars As Their Savior Amid Decline In Demand

Another perspective on utilities looking to EVs to save them from declining demand.