Thank your lucky stars you have overhead service from PG&E. Underground lift and shift is a swift kick in the nuts.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Summary of options for 3-foot requirement between main panel and gas riser
- Thread starter holeydonut
- Start date
Thank your lucky stars you have overhead service from PG&E. Underground lift and shift is a swift kick in the nuts.
That's right. My area requires new service to be underground, even with the neighbors existing overhead service.
Matt-FL
Member
I like the door above the gas meter, where the meter pipes provide a great foot-hold to climb in.
On a similar notion, are you allowed to run electrical conduit underground, along the foundation, through that area?
PG&E does not allow doghouses or other enclosures to count as dividing the air space anymore, though there may still be some flexibility in the field inspections these days. There is some grey area here but generally if the equipment is behind the waterproof layer and inside the wall it is accepted.
Just building an exterior doghouse sticking off the wall around the service or conductors no longer counts as providing clearance between the gas meter and the equipment.
I expect the next Greenbook to have 25 extra pages disclaiming water tables, mid-wall eaves, dog houses, abnormally thick vinyl siding, stucco with a protrusion that has conduit embedded inside, plastic tarps, conduit that is 2 inches below the grade level, spiral reinforced non-helical sheathing, NEMA 7 fittings, and possibly holeydonuts.
You can reduce the 36” radius down to 12” if a slam-shut valve is installed. That was what our local PGE Gas meter tech indicated….documented on a work ticket after he was nice enough to install one after he got off his shift.
I couldn’t find it in the Greenbook, so I filed a request via the phone just to be absolutely sure. PGE said 30day response time, and they weren’t kidding….like 90 days later I got a voicemail stating that 12” radially in any direction from the vent opening to 1) a source of ignition or 2) and opening into the dwelling is acceptable when a slam shut is installed. Interestingly, he said this is NOT in the greenbook but documented in an internal regulation.
I couldn’t find it in the Greenbook, so I filed a request via the phone just to be absolutely sure. PGE said 30day response time, and they weren’t kidding….like 90 days later I got a voicemail stating that 12” radially in any direction from the vent opening to 1) a source of ignition or 2) and opening into the dwelling is acceptable when a slam shut is installed. Interestingly, he said this is NOT in the greenbook but documented in an internal regulation.
This slam shut valve isn't something that PG&E really cooperates about as far as I can tell. It might be something they keep in their back pocket, because I haven't had any luck getting them to install one for anyone I know.
Maybe they would respond to a homeowner or insurer better than a contractor.
Can you post a picture of the shutoff they installed? My understanding is the slam shutoffs are underground before the riser. So maybe you can’t actually get a picture of it…
I have one of those earthquake gas shutoffs but that’s not a slam shutoff (based on what that PG&E T-man that hates solar told me).
I believe the earthquake ones are under ground. The slam-shut is above ground, replaces regulator/vent. It protects against both over-pressure and under-pressure.
Just gotta be really nice to your local gas tech. Obviously they have the default policy in the greenbook, they’re going to want to drive people toward that.
But there’s plenty of legacy customers out there with a riser directly below their window or something, so they needed a solution to keep them compliant.
WTF, you had a PG&E guy add that after his shift? Like this thing is before their meter and costs over $1,000. I feel like @Vines needs to get some of these so he can install a bunch of crap all around the gas riser in his next design.
The FE is a two-stage gas pressure regulator by Pietro Fiorentini.
• FE 50 lever-operated
The FE is a two-stage gas pressure regulator by Pietro Fiorentini.
• FE 50 lever-operated
Always buy coffee/donuts, lunch, etc for your construction crew…goes a long way. I was genuinely interested in the gas techs role, and different aspects of the system…assume he enjoyed a non-irate customer who was generally appreciative of his help.
Yeah the gas guys seem more chill than the power guys. At least, I don't think the gas guys view Solar and Batteries as damaging their pension hah.
I kind of wish I saw the gas tech that wrote me up for having a grounding bond to the gas riser. Then I could ask them about a slam shut valve hah.
When I had the 36" clearance issue in late 2022 for a solar install with like-for-like panel replacement, PG&E agreed to letting me flip the gas piping to go left from the standpipe (away from the electric meter) instead of the original layout toward the right. There were things like a gas earthquake shutoff value in this piping. My standpipe was 18" from the main panel edge and originally the meter went to the right leaving only a few inches of vertical clearance from the edge of the meter panel. PG&E then installed a new gas meter (left of the standpipe) and a FE50 regulator. The PG&E gas technician said this regulator only required a 12" radius to any electrical equipment although I could not find that documented by PG&E anyplace for future reference although it us listed in the product feature page. I see there were some 2023 greenbook updates about clearance but didn't see anything about the FE50 regulator. It seems like a good solution to the clearance problem. PG&E didn't charge me anything for the gas meter/regulator work and I pulled a permit/inspection and did the other minor gas pipe rearranging myself in half an hour. The gas technician did show me how to reset the regulator if the gas shutoff is turn on after being off. He said it will not allow gas flow if you just turn on the valve. There is a little button you have to press while there is a gas flow path. He said you have to do something that allows gas to flow though the meter while holding the button, like running some gas appliance or slightly loosening the union joint to the gas meter. The manuals can be found at FE 25/50 | Low pressure gas regulators and governors - Pietro Fiorentini
The slam-shut exception is apparently not listed in the Greenbook according to my PG&E contact...
“it's in an internal document we have and on there it does say that the acceptable minimum clearance distance for the slam shot regulator is 12 inches radially and any direction from the vent opening to sources of ignition and opening and into the building so what the meter tech told you is correct it does reduce the clearance needed from 36 inches to 12 inches and that's measured radially from the actual vents on the slam shut to any any electric devices or ingress into the house”
“it's in an internal document we have and on there it does say that the acceptable minimum clearance distance for the slam shot regulator is 12 inches radially and any direction from the vent opening to sources of ignition and opening and into the building so what the meter tech told you is correct it does reduce the clearance needed from 36 inches to 12 inches and that's measured radially from the actual vents on the slam shut to any any electric devices or ingress into the house”
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
I could not find any information in the PG&E Green book and I wonder if someone could provide any input:
- I wonder if there are any specific requirements regarding electrical conduits proximity to natural gas conduits?
In the following pictures, in a basement, I have some natural gas conduits (see black painted tubes, about 1" diameter)
and water conduits (see copper tubes, about 2" diameter).
I need to install a PV string line using EMT conduits along a wall, but at some points I will have to intersect with some gas conduits,
so I wonder if there would be any proximities issues? And what kind of advice would you recommend?
- I wonder if there are any specific requirements regarding electrical conduits proximity to natural gas conduits?
In the following pictures, in a basement, I have some natural gas conduits (see black painted tubes, about 1" diameter)
and water conduits (see copper tubes, about 2" diameter).
I need to install a PV string line using EMT conduits along a wall, but at some points I will have to intersect with some gas conduits,
so I wonder if there would be any proximities issues? And what kind of advice would you recommend?
Isn't your contractor dealing with this?
How about bring the PV conduit in to the right to avoid the issue?
In general the concern tends to arise around things like regulators that have the potential to vent gas near things that might serve as ignition points.
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
The estimator would spend 20 minutes to look at the whole project and there would be just one line on the estimate, like '200 ft conduit at $35/ft.'
Then it will be the job of the Foreman to run the construction project, trying to make it as low cost as possible...
Note: I recently had a very bad experience with Sonic who came to install a new ISP fiber Internet.
I requested that everything was installed from the outside, which was agreed.
However, the Foreman decided, while I was not there, to drill vertical holes between a terrace and the garage below,
while I explicitly mentionned that the terrace had some cracks and was leaking when it was rainning.
So the project had to be stopped and the Foreeman to be replaced...
I prefer not been in this situation again, and to define in advance every detail, and checking with an architect
when making holes in a structural wall, and not risking getting issues during future inspections.
If the conduit enter from the other side of the wall, it would be the same problem.... but I am still evaluating various path options and entry points.
I didn't find any specific comments regarding conduits proximity, except when in a trench. Most requirements deal with "Equipment Grounding".
Last edited:
Ulmo
Active Member
Soooooooo tempting, but wow, that's expensive, unless you live in a hot climate 100.00% of the year. Anywhere else, that could balloon to hundreds of thousands of dollars expensive, once all the water heaters and home heating is installed, if it has a nice geothermal pipe network installation into the yard and such, and enough solar power to actually run that. Without a new geothermal pipe network in to the yard, this would be ungodly energy hungry.
So, in any practical sense in terms of cost, this only makes sense in areas that are warm or hot 365.24 days and nights per year, and never experiences a cold snap (or you have fossil backup).
