TLDR; if you don't like reading then you should just close this thread and move on.
I've posted about my problems trying to get my "solar ready" main service panel (MSP) approved by PG&E. I'm consolidating some findings into this thread since it seems other people are having issues dealing with PG&E and their red tape. Rather than handle things in PMs, I'm making this new thread. I imagine this could impact California's other utility coverage areas too.
Background: Many PV/ESS customers with older homes will find their main service panel is not adequate. This could be because of the "120 percent rule" or your main service panel is just old/busted. So you could be facing a new main service panel as part of the process of going green. Unfortunately, the latest building codes require the gas riser to be 36 inches from the main service panel. PG&E could be blocking your installation by demanding that you pay the rather hefty cost(s) to make your existing setup conform with the latest codes. Here's the diagram provided in the PG&E Greenbook:
Since nothing is every simple, it's worth breaking down the issue a bit. There there are two categories of problems (with respect to solar and ESS).
Issue 1: You're a homeowner who needs to get a new main service panel of the same rated size, but your gas riser is closer than 36 inches to the main service panel recess (measured square; not as a radius).
Issue 2: You're a homeowner who needs a new mains service that is a larger rated size than what you have now, but your gas riser is currently closer than 36 inches to the main service panel recess.
I'll cover Issue 1 in this text box; and provide comments about Issue 2 later in this thread.
== =================================================================
Before you can solve your problem, you have to understand your problem. Following these 3 steps to know for sure what is in play with your specific home and green upgrade.
[RESEARCH STEP 1] KNOW YOUR CURRENT PG&E SERVICE SIZE
My gas riser is 28 inches away from my main service panel. The irony is that PG&E okayed the design back in the day when my house was built. It's not like they designed something "unsafe" back then right?. But now, the minimum safe distance is 36 inches.
It's surprisingly difficult to get PG&E to determine your existing service size. If your existing main service panel still has its sticker, this will help a ton to know what your builder installed on your home. But that still doesn't mean you know for sure.
If your PG&E meter says "CL100" (for Class 100) or "CL200" (for Class 200) that is a strong indicator that you could have 125 A or 200 A service respectively. But again, that's still an informed guess.
The only way to know for sure what PG&E service size you have is for someone (probably your contractor) to submit an application on the Customer Connections portal. From here, PG&E will do what they need to do for the assessment.
If your PG&E representative is not paying much attention, they could start making assumptions about what service you have based on pictures and visuals. And these ASSumptions could not be in your favor. If PG&E insists that your existing service is tiny and requires an upgrade, you should request a qualified engineer (QEW) to actually visit your home and visually inspect + confirm.
In my case, my main service panel sticker was missing. And someone took photos of my main service panel which currently has a 90 A and 70 A breaker on the same busbar. For some reason that I cannot fathom, this means the assessor assumed "Hey the largest breaker is 90 so this must be 100A or 125A service. Case Closed." PG&E also couldn't find the original line diagram of the wiring to my subdivision and home.
Since I have underground service, they requested for me to pay the $10,000 to retrench a new line underground to support the bigger service size. I'm pretty sure the average homeowner would have either paid this upgrade fee (which sucks) or cancelled their solar installation (which is what PG&E wants).
But after I rose a stink about it, they actually sent someone to inspect my service and found #4/0 AWG Aluminum in a conduit. They also inspected the transformer on the street and found plenty of capacity. So my house is already set up for 200 A service from PG&E and requires no new entry cables.
I also found a neighbor in my cookie-cutter sub that happened to still have his MSP sticker. Even though it was tattered beyond belief, it was still possible to read the model (Challenger SMB 20) and 200 amp rating.
[RESEARCH STEP 2] KNOW WHAT MSP YOUR SOLAR/ESS IS GOING TO INSTALL
Now you'll want to confirm that the new main service panel is rated the same as the previous one. Ask your installer to get the model number of your new main service panel. Ideally, it would be rated for the same amps as your existing main service panel. For example in my case, Sunrun was going to put in a new Square D main service panel that was also rated for 200 amps. The busbar is 225 Amps, but that's to help accommodate the "120 percent rule" and does not represent the size of the panel.
This step may seem silly, but it's worth checking so you're informed.
[RESEARCH STEP 3] KNOW YOUR PERMITTED MPU & SOLAR PROJECT. AND LOOK AT YOUR NEW SYSTEM LINE DIAGRAM
This step may also seem superfluous... but I lost months because I refused to bulldog my way to looking at this. Sunrun, Tesla, Local-Whatevers probably have proud folks working for them. They cannot fathom making a mistake to be discovered by the homeowner. Or they may hate having nosy homeowners getting in their business. So, they'll probably fight you on this. But trust me, if you're running into problems on your install with the red tape, I strongly suggest for you to get this information.
In my case, the Sunrun engineer accidentally put "MPU 125 Amps Upgrade to 225 Amps" on the line diagram (MPU = Main Panel Upgrade). So the permitted work said "MPU 125 Amps changing to 225 Amps". This means Sunrun was literally telling the county and PG&E that my service was increasing from 125 Amps size to 225 Amps.
To put the cherry on top, Sunrun said they were going to put a 125 A main breaker in the new 225 Amp panel. So PG&E thought I owed the big bucks to upgrade service, and PG&E thought Sunrun was trying to cheat the system by getting an under-sized breaker approved to be swapped later under the table.
What Sunrun should have put was "MPU panel replacement only. 200 A service size is unchanged." . Unfortunately I ASSumed Sunrun could handle the permitting and engineering since they are a publicly traded company and #1 in the nation in terms of PV volume. Easy mistake I guess.
Once you've covered the above steps, you'll know for sure that your existing service from PG&E is up to snuff. And you'll have confirmed that your main service panel size is not changing. If there are any break-downs or inconsistencies in the above steps, you should make sure to align all expectations and data. The homeowner is the only party in this entire process that has to live with the outcome. So you've got to do the legwork.
== =================================================================
So you're probably wondering why you went through the above 3 steps...
In the Greenbook, There is section 1.16.2 which provides an exemption for existing homeowners who are doing a like-for-like main service panel upgrade. This language was meant to grandfather homeowners in to avoid a very expensive lift-and-shift when they're simply replacing a panel. So under most interpretations, if you get a new rated panel that is the same size as your old one in the same location, you have not made your house "less safe." If you confirmed Steps 1 through 3, that should reinforce that you're doing a like-for-like panel upgrade.
But PG&E could still stonewall you. This is because in the Greenbook there is a section 1.16.4 which states that any "self generation" (solar and ESS) must be at least 36 inches from the gas riser. Clever people who love red tape could assert that your "solar ready" main service panel is part of your new self generation energy system. They're basically ignoring 1.16.2 which was written expressly for main service panels. And instead, they are applying 1.16.4 to include your main service panel as part of your new green system.
PG&E doesn't want people to self-generate; they want people to pay their mega-high rates for life. So... you can see the conflict of interest PG&E has in this. They want people to run into hiccups or bail on their installation since that helps their bottom line. A like-for-like is relatively cheap. But a lift-and-shift could require the homeowner to need to pay ~$7k to move the main panel recess, and possibly pay another $10k to re-trench a longer service line to connect things back to PG&E. When faced with these surprise costs, many customers would just cancel and PG&E gets more $.
== =================================================================
Here are the solutions I've found:
1) Be a Karen (in a good way) and start trying to get supervisors/managers involved to get the like-for-like.
I don't think PG&E is across-the-board trying to mess up homeowners from getting solar and ESS. It's probably a few weird apples that think adding friction in the process of going green helps their pension. So, eventually you should be able to find someone who sees your point of view. The work you did in Steps 1 through 3 above should give you all the evidence you need to argue that like-for-like applies to your situation. With effort, you may find an empathetic ear.
2) Push for legalities
The State of California has passed mandates for renewable energy targets (I think it's 50% by 2030). As part of this initiative, the California Office of Planning and Research has enacted policies that were intended to streamline green energy investment. Since your new system is not demonstrably "less safe" that what you already have in your house, you may be able to get help from your local AG to push PG&E to granting the like-for-like assessment. I don't think this approach will be fast, but it sure beats paying $17,000 to lift-and-shift plus retrench a new line.
3) Ask your PV/ESS contractor to split the project up.
Some installers are performing the MPU change completely outside of the scope of a solar/ESS installation. This could also be required in your city/county. This approach basically requires submitting a stand-alone building permit and PG&E connection request that only covers the MPU.
For example, I have a Challenger (Zinsco) main panel that is 30 years old. A stand-alone permit could simply be that the Challenger brand panel presents a fire risk, and the main service panel is end-of-life and is weather-damaged. Since there is no PV or ESS involved in this MPU, then PG&E would not be able to bring in 1.16.4 into the equation and should grant like-for-like under 1.16.2.
You should still make sure Step 1 and Step 2 above are analyzed to ensure you are in fact getting a like-for-like panel is in play.
Keep in mind if you go this route, there cannot be a big pallet of solar panels; stack of powerwalls; or a roof crew on site when the PG&E lineman comes out to perform the MPU disconnect. The lineman could see that there is in fact solar and ESS involved, and say 1.16.4 applies and block you.
== =================================================================
Here what I think you should NOT DO:
1) DO NOT Cheat the system.
Some contractors may submit a lower-rated panel or main breaker in the permit and line design. Then when PG&E isn't looking, they swap in the higher amp items.
This is highly risky and probably going to be a bigger headache in the long run. Maybe your current service entry lines are only rated for 125 A. So suddenly bumping things up to 200 A in a sneaky way could cause a fire risk. If your house really does needs a service upgrade, you'll want to check out my post below (probably coming in a few hours since I have actual work I need to get done today).
2) DO NOT Just blindly pay what PG&E wants you to pay.
PG&E's first recommendation will always be to pay large sums of money to "fix" the situation. There are solutions out there that may cost a few thousand dollars, but should be cheaper than the $20k fix that PG&E will initially ask for.
3) DO NOT Give up.
PG&E wants you to give up. When you give up on going green, they win.
I've posted about my problems trying to get my "solar ready" main service panel (MSP) approved by PG&E. I'm consolidating some findings into this thread since it seems other people are having issues dealing with PG&E and their red tape. Rather than handle things in PMs, I'm making this new thread. I imagine this could impact California's other utility coverage areas too.
Background: Many PV/ESS customers with older homes will find their main service panel is not adequate. This could be because of the "120 percent rule" or your main service panel is just old/busted. So you could be facing a new main service panel as part of the process of going green. Unfortunately, the latest building codes require the gas riser to be 36 inches from the main service panel. PG&E could be blocking your installation by demanding that you pay the rather hefty cost(s) to make your existing setup conform with the latest codes. Here's the diagram provided in the PG&E Greenbook:
Since nothing is every simple, it's worth breaking down the issue a bit. There there are two categories of problems (with respect to solar and ESS).
Issue 1: You're a homeowner who needs to get a new main service panel of the same rated size, but your gas riser is closer than 36 inches to the main service panel recess (measured square; not as a radius).
Issue 2: You're a homeowner who needs a new mains service that is a larger rated size than what you have now, but your gas riser is currently closer than 36 inches to the main service panel recess.
I'll cover Issue 1 in this text box; and provide comments about Issue 2 later in this thread.
== =================================================================
Before you can solve your problem, you have to understand your problem. Following these 3 steps to know for sure what is in play with your specific home and green upgrade.
[RESEARCH STEP 1] KNOW YOUR CURRENT PG&E SERVICE SIZE
My gas riser is 28 inches away from my main service panel. The irony is that PG&E okayed the design back in the day when my house was built. It's not like they designed something "unsafe" back then right?. But now, the minimum safe distance is 36 inches.
It's surprisingly difficult to get PG&E to determine your existing service size. If your existing main service panel still has its sticker, this will help a ton to know what your builder installed on your home. But that still doesn't mean you know for sure.
If your PG&E meter says "CL100" (for Class 100) or "CL200" (for Class 200) that is a strong indicator that you could have 125 A or 200 A service respectively. But again, that's still an informed guess.
The only way to know for sure what PG&E service size you have is for someone (probably your contractor) to submit an application on the Customer Connections portal. From here, PG&E will do what they need to do for the assessment.
If your PG&E representative is not paying much attention, they could start making assumptions about what service you have based on pictures and visuals. And these ASSumptions could not be in your favor. If PG&E insists that your existing service is tiny and requires an upgrade, you should request a qualified engineer (QEW) to actually visit your home and visually inspect + confirm.
In my case, my main service panel sticker was missing. And someone took photos of my main service panel which currently has a 90 A and 70 A breaker on the same busbar. For some reason that I cannot fathom, this means the assessor assumed "Hey the largest breaker is 90 so this must be 100A or 125A service. Case Closed." PG&E also couldn't find the original line diagram of the wiring to my subdivision and home.
Since I have underground service, they requested for me to pay the $10,000 to retrench a new line underground to support the bigger service size. I'm pretty sure the average homeowner would have either paid this upgrade fee (which sucks) or cancelled their solar installation (which is what PG&E wants).
But after I rose a stink about it, they actually sent someone to inspect my service and found #4/0 AWG Aluminum in a conduit. They also inspected the transformer on the street and found plenty of capacity. So my house is already set up for 200 A service from PG&E and requires no new entry cables.
I also found a neighbor in my cookie-cutter sub that happened to still have his MSP sticker. Even though it was tattered beyond belief, it was still possible to read the model (Challenger SMB 20) and 200 amp rating.
[RESEARCH STEP 2] KNOW WHAT MSP YOUR SOLAR/ESS IS GOING TO INSTALL
Now you'll want to confirm that the new main service panel is rated the same as the previous one. Ask your installer to get the model number of your new main service panel. Ideally, it would be rated for the same amps as your existing main service panel. For example in my case, Sunrun was going to put in a new Square D main service panel that was also rated for 200 amps. The busbar is 225 Amps, but that's to help accommodate the "120 percent rule" and does not represent the size of the panel.
This step may seem silly, but it's worth checking so you're informed.
[RESEARCH STEP 3] KNOW YOUR PERMITTED MPU & SOLAR PROJECT. AND LOOK AT YOUR NEW SYSTEM LINE DIAGRAM
This step may also seem superfluous... but I lost months because I refused to bulldog my way to looking at this. Sunrun, Tesla, Local-Whatevers probably have proud folks working for them. They cannot fathom making a mistake to be discovered by the homeowner. Or they may hate having nosy homeowners getting in their business. So, they'll probably fight you on this. But trust me, if you're running into problems on your install with the red tape, I strongly suggest for you to get this information.
In my case, the Sunrun engineer accidentally put "MPU 125 Amps Upgrade to 225 Amps" on the line diagram (MPU = Main Panel Upgrade). So the permitted work said "MPU 125 Amps changing to 225 Amps". This means Sunrun was literally telling the county and PG&E that my service was increasing from 125 Amps size to 225 Amps.
To put the cherry on top, Sunrun said they were going to put a 125 A main breaker in the new 225 Amp panel. So PG&E thought I owed the big bucks to upgrade service, and PG&E thought Sunrun was trying to cheat the system by getting an under-sized breaker approved to be swapped later under the table.
What Sunrun should have put was "MPU panel replacement only. 200 A service size is unchanged." . Unfortunately I ASSumed Sunrun could handle the permitting and engineering since they are a publicly traded company and #1 in the nation in terms of PV volume. Easy mistake I guess.
Once you've covered the above steps, you'll know for sure that your existing service from PG&E is up to snuff. And you'll have confirmed that your main service panel size is not changing. If there are any break-downs or inconsistencies in the above steps, you should make sure to align all expectations and data. The homeowner is the only party in this entire process that has to live with the outcome. So you've got to do the legwork.
== =================================================================
So you're probably wondering why you went through the above 3 steps...
In the Greenbook, There is section 1.16.2 which provides an exemption for existing homeowners who are doing a like-for-like main service panel upgrade. This language was meant to grandfather homeowners in to avoid a very expensive lift-and-shift when they're simply replacing a panel. So under most interpretations, if you get a new rated panel that is the same size as your old one in the same location, you have not made your house "less safe." If you confirmed Steps 1 through 3, that should reinforce that you're doing a like-for-like panel upgrade.
But PG&E could still stonewall you. This is because in the Greenbook there is a section 1.16.4 which states that any "self generation" (solar and ESS) must be at least 36 inches from the gas riser. Clever people who love red tape could assert that your "solar ready" main service panel is part of your new self generation energy system. They're basically ignoring 1.16.2 which was written expressly for main service panels. And instead, they are applying 1.16.4 to include your main service panel as part of your new green system.
PG&E doesn't want people to self-generate; they want people to pay their mega-high rates for life. So... you can see the conflict of interest PG&E has in this. They want people to run into hiccups or bail on their installation since that helps their bottom line. A like-for-like is relatively cheap. But a lift-and-shift could require the homeowner to need to pay ~$7k to move the main panel recess, and possibly pay another $10k to re-trench a longer service line to connect things back to PG&E. When faced with these surprise costs, many customers would just cancel and PG&E gets more $.
== =================================================================
Here are the solutions I've found:
1) Be a Karen (in a good way) and start trying to get supervisors/managers involved to get the like-for-like.
I don't think PG&E is across-the-board trying to mess up homeowners from getting solar and ESS. It's probably a few weird apples that think adding friction in the process of going green helps their pension. So, eventually you should be able to find someone who sees your point of view. The work you did in Steps 1 through 3 above should give you all the evidence you need to argue that like-for-like applies to your situation. With effort, you may find an empathetic ear.
2) Push for legalities
The State of California has passed mandates for renewable energy targets (I think it's 50% by 2030). As part of this initiative, the California Office of Planning and Research has enacted policies that were intended to streamline green energy investment. Since your new system is not demonstrably "less safe" that what you already have in your house, you may be able to get help from your local AG to push PG&E to granting the like-for-like assessment. I don't think this approach will be fast, but it sure beats paying $17,000 to lift-and-shift plus retrench a new line.
3) Ask your PV/ESS contractor to split the project up.
Some installers are performing the MPU change completely outside of the scope of a solar/ESS installation. This could also be required in your city/county. This approach basically requires submitting a stand-alone building permit and PG&E connection request that only covers the MPU.
For example, I have a Challenger (Zinsco) main panel that is 30 years old. A stand-alone permit could simply be that the Challenger brand panel presents a fire risk, and the main service panel is end-of-life and is weather-damaged. Since there is no PV or ESS involved in this MPU, then PG&E would not be able to bring in 1.16.4 into the equation and should grant like-for-like under 1.16.2.
You should still make sure Step 1 and Step 2 above are analyzed to ensure you are in fact getting a like-for-like panel is in play.
Keep in mind if you go this route, there cannot be a big pallet of solar panels; stack of powerwalls; or a roof crew on site when the PG&E lineman comes out to perform the MPU disconnect. The lineman could see that there is in fact solar and ESS involved, and say 1.16.4 applies and block you.
== =================================================================
Here what I think you should NOT DO:
1) DO NOT Cheat the system.
Some contractors may submit a lower-rated panel or main breaker in the permit and line design. Then when PG&E isn't looking, they swap in the higher amp items.
This is highly risky and probably going to be a bigger headache in the long run. Maybe your current service entry lines are only rated for 125 A. So suddenly bumping things up to 200 A in a sneaky way could cause a fire risk. If your house really does needs a service upgrade, you'll want to check out my post below (probably coming in a few hours since I have actual work I need to get done today).
2) DO NOT Just blindly pay what PG&E wants you to pay.
PG&E's first recommendation will always be to pay large sums of money to "fix" the situation. There are solutions out there that may cost a few thousand dollars, but should be cheaper than the $20k fix that PG&E will initially ask for.
3) DO NOT Give up.
PG&E wants you to give up. When you give up on going green, they win.