Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[SO16]

By showing 100% when it isn't actually really is a complete LIE.

On that metric, E doesn’t mean empty for many gas cars either. (Yes, in this E case, it’s actually a good thing but it still can be considered a “lie”.)

Look, I get that people who purchased these cars and are now getting some reduced performance are upset. But I also realize that when I purchased my MS, these were still “experimental”. Even the Model 3 will be in new territory in 20 years. The history just isn’t there. Things are bound to come up. Tesla will have to adjust accordingly. No different than with the AP nags because the media and some drivers are complete aholes.

For people to think that their EV should be exactly as good or better many years later, should wait another 20 years before buying one.

Yes, Tesla should come out and say that in order to preserve battery or for safety reasons, we need to do X and perhaps even offer some compensation if it’s enough to be “noticed” in real world use. But to think these cars will not have some challenges, is kind of misguided.

Still wouldn’t go back to gas. For all of you saying that you’ll buy an ipace or whatever, I think they too will run into these types of issues. Again, wait another 20 years if you don’t want to have anything negative happen to your vehicle. Then the history should be there to back up your concern. Right now, everyone is just guessing what will happen long term.

 

[VT_EE]

I don't think that's true. We have data from thousands of cars collected by different people. We have a good idea what normal degradation is. Tesla's batteries are very good but not magic.

I have approx 11% degradation after 212k miles. That's right around the average for similar cars. Not too long ago I did a test driving the car to the point where it shut down. Had the BMS misjudged degradation I would have been stranded long before 0, but I could go 3 miles after it showed zero. I regularly drive my car down to single digit range left. The BMS is correct in calculatiing the availabe capacity. The change in Voltage when charging to 100% also confirms that Tesla is artificially reducing the capacity. So I think there is good evidence that it's not a BMS bug that calculated the capacity wrong.

I think the answer is in finding out what makes the affected cars differnt than those not affected (which is still the majority).

Excellent points. There has to be something causing the BMS to lower the max charge. The questions seem to be: Is this the result of “normal” aging?; Is this sudden drop merely a new bug they are dealing with which will be remedied soon?; Are there legitimate outliers that need replacement and the intern running the communications department hasn’t figured out how to advertise this yet?

 

[sorka]

Who said the display has to show “100%” of the original full capacity? I personally would want to know when my useable (post normal degradation) battery is at 100%, otherwise as your battery ages the % keeps getting lower and you have no idea when a charge is actually done. What’s the point of charging to full and having the display say 85%? If you want to see how many actual miles are available, which would give you an indication of degradation from new, then change it to the mileage reading. It almost seems like some people on this forum think the “fuel gauge” in a Tesla should work like a gas tank fuel gauge.

You already don't know that. If they decide to knock another 3% off at the next charge, you won't know until the charge is done. They way they have it now, they'll display 100% but knock another x number of miles off your rated range and you won't know until you finish charging.

You seem to think that if you set it 100%, you're going to get the same mileage you got the last time you charged to 100%. Or scale that to any SOC 90% vs the rated range you would have gotten on the previous 90%. Do you not get that owners are seeing continual drop charge after charge?

 

[Chaserr]

Apache check your numbers again. An 85 pack was 4.2v at 100% and at 3.9v @ 80.9% SoC. Your P85 would need to be a software limited 100 to still have 4.1v pack voltage at 90% (maybe more, 100 packs only have 1000 more cells), there aren't enough cells to support your ability to hold 100% charge for 10% of actual use as anything but erroneous.

 

[Droschke]

From what I’ve gathered in this thread, most people experiencing little to no rates mileage loss, even after years of use and tens of thousands of miles, are the ones getting hit.

You keep saying this and I keep responding to you that it is not case. The already-degraded cars have also been hit as well. There are multiple threads at TMC, a linked spreadsheet, and other websites where already-degraded batteries have been hit by this sudden degradation.

So, my current theory is a bug in the BMS software continued to allow charging as if there was no degradation because the BMS didn’t recognize there was actually degradation.

Here you go again, even though you claim "I’ve read this entire thread". This is not a bug fix, based on what owners have posted and the evidence shared. It's intentionally capping how much of your available capacity you can charge to while presenting a misleading metrics on your display to make you believe otherwise, i.e., the display shows you have charged to 90% while in reality that's something like 80% as an example.

 

[electronblue]

It looks like it is intentional capping to avoid recently discovered battery fires, right?

 

[Droschke]

Who said the display has to show “100%” of the original full capacity? I personally would want to know when my useable (post normal degradation) battery is at 100%.

How do we know what that usable capacity is? They are not telling us. And, by not telling, in essence, they are the one who are saying the display is showing the “100%” of the original full capacity.

 

[sorka]

On that metric, E doesn’t mean empty for many gas cars either. (Yes, in this E case, it’s actually a good thing but it still can be considered a “lie”.)

Look, I get that people who purchased these cars and are now getting some reduced performance are upset. But I also realize that when I purchased my MS, these were still “experimental”. Even the Model 3 will be in new territory in 20 years. The history just isn’t there. Things are bound to come up. Tesla will have to adjust accordingly. No different than with the AP nags because the media and some drivers are complete aholes.

For people to think that their EV should be exactly as good or better many years later, should wait another 20 years before buying one.

Yes, Tesla should come out and say that in order to preserve battery or for safety reasons, we need to do X and perhaps even offer some compensation if it’s enough to be “noticed” in real world use. But to think these cars will not have some challenges, is kind of misguided.

Still wouldn’t go back to gas. For all of you saying that you’ll buy an ipace or whatever, I think they too will run into these types of issues. Again, wait another 20 years if you don’t want to have anything negative happen to your vehicle. Then the history should be there to back up your concern. Right now, everyone is just guessing what will happen long term.

The difference here is that Tesla is locking at performance and capacity that actually still exists. Whatever they've discovered that is prompting them to do this is not because of normal degradation. Any 50% degraded Lithium Ion cell can still be charged to 4.2 volts.

 

[VT_EE]

You keep saying this and I keep responding to you that it is not case. The already-degraded cars have also been hit as well. There are multiple threads at TMC, a linked spreadsheet, and other websites where already-degraded batteries have been hit by this sudden degradation.



Here you go again, even though you claim "I’ve read this entire thread". This is not a bug fix, based on what owners have posted and the evidence shared. It's intentionally capping how much of your available capacity you can charge to while presenting a misleading metrics on your display to make you believe otherwise, i.e., the display shows you have charged to 90% while in reality that's something like 80% as an example.

You flat out do not know this with any certainly. You also have no clue what the motivation is behind these software updates. I’ve clearly stated I am merely theorizing as is appropriate on this forum. You on the other hand act like you actually know for certain the reason behind this stuff. You don’t, any more than I do. Feel free to lay out some theories and engage in a civilized debate as opposed to shooting others down using data that is frankly statistically insignificant. The sampling size of TeslaFi is too small to draw any definitive conclusions as is the data presented in this forum. If you want to draw legitimate conclusions based on data, get Tesla to turn over their data representing all Tesla vehicles.

 

[ran349]

How do we know Tesla hasn’t been capping the max voltage all along? Maybe it’s just being noticed now because of the dramatic drop in miles some people have recently experienced. I have 10% degradation but it could be due to natural degradation, but maybe my max voltage has also been reduced slowly over time.

 

[David99]

Look, I get that people who purchased these cars and are now getting some reduced performance are upset. But I also realize that when I purchased my MS, these were still “experimental”. Even the Model 3 will be in new territory in 20 years. The history just isn’t there. Things are bound to come up. Tesla will have to adjust accordingly. No different than with the AP nags because the media and some drivers are complete aholes.

For people to think that their EV should be exactly as good or better many years later, should wait another 20 years before buying one.

What you say it correct, but you are missing the point of this discussion / issue.

This isn't about degradation or battery life. We all know they will degrade with time and use. No one is complaining about it.

It's about a limited number of cars that have suddenly been stripped of a good amount of their range by a software update while most cars are unaffected. It cannot be degradation because it doesn't happen to just a few cars and not suddenly like this. I perelooked at the data of one of these cars and the battery metrics look very healthy and good.

Limiting the upper charge level (by artificially setting the 100 % point lower) prevents people from charging to real 100 %. But most people charge to 90% anyways. But since it takes away range people will most likely charge to a higher level now to get the range back. So the purpose is defeated. What Tesla does not make any sense. It doesn't help.

I believe the software update has a flw that makes it 'overreact' and clipping some cars down way more than intended. I assume Tesla will fix this soon.

 

[tinm]

No change on our 2013 P85@100k miles. Charges to 100%/223 miles, nominal full pack 73,2. Scan my Tesla reports 4,198 on highest cell just before completing charge, and pack voltage 402v. Dropped ever so slightly after complete. Battery pumps and powertrain pumps were running after charging complete, and some 0,8A were pulled from the HV battery when reading.

2019.16.2.73d3f3c

Not sure if this app calculates cell voltages correctly, but at this point our P85 does noe seem to be affected. Will test our 85D later.

Yikes you only get 223 miles at 100% on your 2013 S? I get 223 miles at 90% on my 2013 S (102K mi). Still seeing about 245 at 100%. Though, a month or two ago that would have been 250 at 100%. I've seen a small degradation recently, nothing as alarming as others here, but I'm nervous as hell that it's coming.

 

[SO16]

I believe the software update has a flw that makes it 'overreact' and clipping some cars down way more than intended. I assume Tesla will fix this soon.

Very possible. Another reason to wait on installing updates right away to make sure the release is stable. (But I always install right away.)

 

[VT_EE]

What you say it correct, but you are missing the point of this discussion / issue.

This isn't about degradation or battery life. We all know they will degrade with time and use. No one is complaining about it.

It's about a limited number of cars that have suddenly been stripped of a good amount of their range by a software update while most cars are unaffected. It cannot be degradation because it doesn't happen to just a few cars and not suddenly like this. I perelooked at the data of one of these cars and the battery metrics look very healthy and good.

Limiting the upper charge level (by artificially setting the 100 % point lower) prevents people from charging to real 100 %. But most people charge to 90% anyways. But since it takes away range people will most likely charge to a higher level now to get the range back. So the purpose is defeated. What Tesla does not make any sense. It doesn't help.

I believe the software update has a flw that makes it 'overreact' and clipping some cars down way more than intended. I assume Tesla will fix this soon.

Your tbeory is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

 

[Droschke]

You flat out do not know this with any certainly.

Agree. I go by the evidence provided by the owners. You just theorize (your words)

You also have no clue what the motivation is behind these software updates.

Really? That's very presumptuous.

I’ve clearly stated I am merely theorizing as is appropriate on this forum.

That you have.

You on the other hand act like you actually know for certain the reason behind this stuff.

I go by the evidence provided by the owners and what I've experienced. You just theorize (your words).

Feel free to lay out some theories and engage in a civilized debate

Civilized?

I'm actually done with you. No reason to waste time.

 

[Chaserr]

How do we know Tesla hasn’t been capping the max voltage all along? Maybe it’s just being noticed now because of the dramatic drop in miles some people have recently experienced. I have 10% degradation but it could be due to natural degradation, but maybe my max voltage has also been reduced slowly over time.

Voltage and charge % are the same thing. If they capped voltage to 3.9 originally, we would have been capped with miles all along. Software limited batteries like the S40 were voltage capped too, it's the way Tesla has always done it. As you use battery and % falls, the voltage falls. As you recharge, voltage goes up. Voltage is how your car calculates %. What they did with this update was adjusting to display 100% while software capping at 80% to show you a faked 100%. The lowered voltage is proof - Degraded cells could still charge to full voltage. If you want to see whether you have a software cap or natural degradation, check your voltage at 100%.

 

[VT_EE]

Voltage and charge % are the same thing. If they capped voltage to 3.9 originally, we would have been capped with miles all along. Software limited batteries like the S40 were voltage capped too, it's the way Tesla has always done it. As you use battery and % falls, the voltage falls. As you recharge, voltage goes up. Voltage is how your car calculates %. What they did with this update was adjusting to display 100% while software capping at 80% to show you a faked 100%. The lowered voltage is proof - Degraded cells could still charge to full voltage. If you want to see whether you have a software cap or natural degradation, check your voltage at 100%.

Isn’t this how the iPhone BMS works? I charge every night to 100%. The screen shows I’m at 100% when in fact I am only charging to 95% of the original capacity. The 95% number is found in the battery health information. I just replaced my wife’s battery which was charge limited by Apple to 75% and was consequently slowing the phone down (the battery meter still showed 100% after a night’s charge).

 

[Gizmo74]

Isn’t this how the iPhone BMS works? I charge every night to 100%. The screen shows I’m at 100% when in fact I am only charging to 95% of the original capacity. The 95% number is found in the battery health information. I just replaced my wife’s battery which was charge limited by Apple to 75% and was consequently slowing the phone down (the battery meter still showed 100% after a night’s charge).

No. You still mix up capacity and SOC.

100% SOC is always 4.2V. New, after 50'000 miles, after 500'000 miles. Always.

Capacity goes down over time.

You have a usable capacity between about 4.2V and 3.5V. When a cell is new you can use f.e. 3000 mAh. Now your cell gets older and degrades to 2000 mAh. You still load your cell to 4.2V and discharge to 3.5V. Like new. But get only 2000 mAh instead of 3000 mAh.

Now tesla limits Vmax to 4.1V. Then you have only about 85% left from your reduced capacity. So 2000 * 0.85 = 1700 mAh.

 

[DJRas]

It looks like it is intentional capping to avoid recently discovered battery fires, right?

Nobody from Tesla has said that.
Purely speculation.
Tesla's reply o Frederic at Electrek said it was to extend usable life. In other words artificially degrade a bettery so it doesn't degrade on it's own and need warranty replacement.

 

[electronblue]

Nobody from Tesla has said that.
Purely speculation.
Tesla's reply o Frederic at Electrek said it was to extend usable life. In other words artificially degrade a bettery so it doesn't degrade on it's own and need warranty replacement.

History has shown that Tesla is not exactly open about these things so I’m not sure if that is saying much.