Sudden Battery Failures

[Inqling]

I've searched a few times on the forum and I apologize if I just used the wrong key words, but I'm not finding much on this subject. I've been studying Model S issues for about 60 hours worth now in preparation of purchasing a late 2016 - early 2017 P100D. One issue that stands out was sudden battery failure (as opposed to degradation). One YT I watched (and failed to bookmark) indicated when this happens, it tends to happen early on (< 40K miles). If I remember correctly it stated after 80K miles there were only two instances of it happening.

Obviously, I'm concerned about doing all the due diligence for everything and finding a car that is well within a good degradation (say... <5%/100K miles) have it for a couple of months and it suddenly die and require a replacement battery. Can someone help clarify some things:

1. Are there some key words (like Tesla codes) or something that I can better search this forum for relevant information?
2. Are there any symptoms before these failures that I might see while doing my car search? I've learned how to query the car's Service Mode.
3. Has the forum's experience also concluded that this is an issue that happens early on and if beyond a certain mileage, it's unlikely to occur. IOW, this would drive my search to a higher mileage car.
4. Is there a way to determine if a car has already had a replacement battery? Even if I have to get the car up on a lift? Can it be determined if it was a refurbished or new battery?
5. What actually causes this type of failure (a single BMS, a single cell, a single module).
6. I've watched several YT on the repair of a battery. What expectation is it that a single small piece that alone would only be $10, but because the labor is so huge to crack the battery open and find that broken piece, that is driving these $15K-20K replacements?

Thanks.

 

[NV Ray]

Several 2012-15 Model S's (including my own} have experienced a BMS_u029 or 018 alert requiring costly pack replacement/repair. I've heard of a handful of 2016-present Teslas requiring same. There may be more but 2016-present Teslas are still under warranty and as such, we may not have as much visabilty.

To answer your questions - (1) BMS_029, BMS_u018, Maximum battery charge level reduced. (2) There are very few if no symptoms before failures occur. Mine happened immediately after doing a factory reset. (3) There has been no correlation with miles and charging habits. (4) You can check the pack label located behind the right from passenger tire. Look up at the pack and the label will be there. If there is an R1 or higher after the T serial number then it's a refurbished pack. If not, it's an original pack to the car. (5) Any of the things you mention, plus myraid other factors can cause failure, with water ingress being a contributing factor in 2012-15 Teslas, and (6) That's the concern with all EVs not just Tesla. In most cases, the cost to replace a failed pack often is more than the car is worth.

That said, I've heard, and time will tell, that sometime in 2015 and continuing on to present, that Tesla has improved their HV batteries to mitigate early 2012-15 issues.

Also, for around $100 you can get an app like ScanMyTesla and necessary hardware to determine the HV battery's health. Here's video from @islandbayy that will help with getting these items.

Lastly, using your computer (not your phone), check out the FAQs located here https://tinyurl.com/bdzxksyb

 

[NV Ray]

I see you are in North Carolina. If close to the Charlotte area, reach out to Bernard Tripp at Autohaus Lake Norman. He has been a valuable resource to me on my questions. Independent Tesla Service | Autohaus Lake Norman

There used to be a second Tesla 3rd party repair in Hickory called 057Tech but I'm not certain they are in business any longer. Folks have indicated no response to contact. 057 Technology

 

[KArnold]

You can also consider 3rd party warranty service like X-Care.

I'm not sure what the average degradation is in numbers but I'm slightly worse than the fleet average on a graph for my '17 MS100. I'm likely 7% to 8%, mostly in the first few years. The last few years I've been doing mostly super charging too as I get it free but that doesn't seem to have significant impact. But I can still get 300 miles on a warm day with 280 miles comfortably. That's plenty for me and one of the reasons I went with the 100 - I tend to keep cars until they break. I'm at 90k miles now.

 

[brainhouston]

Don't believe every YouTube video u watch lol
100kwh packs are pretty solid n rarely fail
At 100k miles expect ~10% degradation...

 

[Rocky_H]

I've been studying Model S issues for about 60 hours worth now in preparation of purchasing a late 2016 - early 2017 P100D. One issue that stands out was sudden battery failure (as opposed to degradation). One YT I watched (and failed to bookmark) indicated when this happens, it tends to happen early on (< 40K miles). If I remember correctly it stated after 80K miles there were only two instances of it happening.

By looking at 2016 to 2017 cars, you're already into the much MUCH better era of solid reliability. The 2012 through 2014-ish years had some bad design choices that made them very susceptible to moisture intrusion and corrosion that led to sudden failure in middle age. 100 packs are generally really solid.

 

[Inqling]

... To answer your questions - (1) BMS_029, BMS_u018, Maximum battery charge level reduced...

100 packs are generally really solid.

OK... I've put in about twelve hours of reading and am quite bleary eye'd using just "029" as a search as I found that some just call it u029. Haven't even gone through half of the threads and not even glanced at u018 threads. I think I've read more to scare me off a used Tesla and a new S is not an option. Some other survey from some other source (that I failed to bookmark) indicated the need to replace a battery is about 6% of all Tesla's and that the 100's are better in this regard, however, not many of them have gone the distances that earlier ones have.

I was also really encouraged by 057 being just two hours down the road and his willingness to explain things technically... but dashed when I see he has sold the company and new owners have not risen from the ashes (yet). Even if they do, it appears the real 057 brain trust isn't going to be there. He seems quite burned-out. Like the saying goes, "Business Would Be Great if it Weren't for Customers"!

And further... having learned if any third party even touches the battery pack, Tesla will likely refuse a battery swap under warranty or not... adding another $20K to the bill. Is there any way to see if a third party has touched it? This has forced me to consider that the only real option for me will be a new or rebuilt battery from Tesla. Do Tesla service centers allow me to bring them a car on a test-drive and confirm that it still has an un-tampered, valid warranty and that they'd do a paid swap after the warranty expires? Based on readings, it appears you can't talk to them to save your life!

That I was looking at late 2016, early 2017 P100D cars that still had the warranty was my main relief. However, I also learned in this deep dive that if some un-reputable owner or dealer has reset these errors, I may not be able to see that the car on the lot has an issue that will only rear its head the moment, I go to fully charge it. At least (I believe) fully charging to 100% makes this 029 re-appear after a reset.

I was kind of expecting that I'd have year of warranty to confirm and get the battery/motor fixed, but after I'd have 90% chance of having a 300K mile car with little trouble beyond things like door handles, and air-springs.

 

[Rocky_H]

You're going off into some really negative thinking here, based on what I think is some misinformation.

First off, yeah, it's a crap shoot of when batteries last or fail. Mine is a 2014 S85--one of the ones I mentioned that is very susceptible to that corrosion problem. It's at 104K miles and still on its original battery. They can last, but I'm also realistic that it very well might fail in the next few years, or at any time now really. So replacement options?

I was also really encouraged by 057 being just two hours down the road and his willingness to explain things technically... but dashed when I see he has sold the company and new owners have not risen from the ashes (yet).

That is originally who I was planning to go with, but yeah, unfortunately that seems to have fallen apart or imploded somehow. So I am on to my secondary option:

Recell

recell-ev.com

Recell is based in Texas and seems to also be at that top tier level who really knows what they are doing. They have a couple of replacement options for the S and X models of basically smaller or bigger battery size. The bigger one, which would be about equivalent to my old S85 is for $9,995. That includes transport of the car to their shop, and the full installation. Then, you can either pick the car up, or add some cost to have it shipped back to you. That's a pretty good deal, and is what I am leaning toward when I need my replacement.

And further... having learned if any third party even touches the battery pack, Tesla will likely refuse a battery swap under warranty or not... adding another $20K to the bill.

Well, this sentence just doesn't make any sense at all to me. You either have a third party do it, or you have Tesla do it--not both!! If it's in warranty, then Tesla does it. If it's out of warranty, then I would lean toward using a third party. There is no "adding $20K". If you are willing to pay that much, that is just going directly to Tesla and paying for a brand new battery. You're creating an irrational fear.

 

[Inqling]

Well, this sentence just doesn't make any sense at all to me. You either have a third party do it, or you have Tesla do it--not both!! If it's in warranty, then Tesla does it. If it's out of warranty, then I would lean toward using a third party. There is no "adding $20K". If you are willing to pay that much, that is just going directly to Tesla and paying for a brand new battery. You're creating an irrational fear.

Two ways it will make sense...
(1) It has already been tampered before I purchase it (and can't tell) by one of the many people 057 mentioned that FUBAR'd them.
(2) If I were to need a fix and use a reputable such as Recel and later have troubles... and needed to take it to Tesla, they'd then deny it. This assumes I loved the car and in my second or third 100K miles.

And yes, I did recognize from the readings, that Recel was a second choice only because of distance.

 

[Rocky_H]

If I were to need a fix and use a reputable such as Recel and later have troubles... and needed to take it to Tesla, they'd then deny it.

(1) I don't think that is true. "Deny" what? We're talking about out of warranty coverage, so you would be paying out of pocket for them to do something, so why would they deny getting paid for a pay-as-you-go job?
(2) Make sure to separate what you're talking about here. If it's anything else on the car, like air suspension or door handles or whatever else, no, they can't deny working on it because of something being done to the battery. And if you're talking about battery when out of warranty, why would you go to Tesla anyway, if you're dealing with Recell for it?

I have a decade old car that is likely going to have the battery fail soon-ish, and I consider this pretty straightforward. I am not going to Tesla for a battery replacement as long as Recell is still in business.

Now I would recommend that people make up their minds of which direction they are going and NOT try to mix and match who you work with for battery service. Either stick with Tesla for it entirely or stick with a third party for it entirely. Some people will want to trust Tesla more and will pay more, and some people will go the other way. Yes, Tesla has longer warranty on their out of pocket battery replacements. That is part of what you are paying for in the higher price.

 

[NV Ray]

@Ingling The years you are looking at, 2016-17, should not be tampered with as you outline. As those will have been covered under Tesla's 8 year warranty and Tesla has repaired. The only way they risk being tampered after warranty is if the car exceeded it's miles before years and the owner opted for a non-Tesla repair solution. I think it was 120k miles...

That said, if you're looking at 2016-17s, at best you've got 2 years of warranty left, with some going out of warranty each day as we speak.

As I mentioned in my #3 post upthread, you also have Lake Norman Autohouse outside of Charlotte as a Tesla alternative. For me I paid for my new (not reman) replacement pack from Tesla on my 2012 P85.

 

[Inqling]

(1) I don't think that is true. "Deny" what? We're talking about out of warranty coverage, so you would be paying out of pocket for them to do something, so why would they deny getting paid for a pay-as-you-go job?
(2) Make sure to separate what you're talking about here. If it's anything else on the car, like air suspension or door handles or whatever else, no, they can't deny working on it because of something being done to the battery. And if you're talking about battery when out of warranty, why would you go to Tesla anyway, if you're dealing with Recell for it?

I guess you haven't read as thoroughly as I have. There was at least one post indicating that Tesla will first charge you the $15k to $21K for the replacement, but will deny accepting the core charge on the messed-with pack. And that is an additional $20K. Now... considering there was much animosity in many of the posts and accusations of FUD, maybe you don't trust 057's word anymore. Maybe, you can talk to this Tesla accusation or to the member involved...
057 Technology extended service plan

I do wonder, because the implication is if he worked on it (and went out of business) and we turned to Tesla, they would deny his service and say pony up the extra $20K.

 

[Inqling]

@Ingling The years you are looking at, 2016-17, should not be tampered with as you outline. As those will have been covered under Tesla's 8 year warranty and Tesla has repaired.

Excellent point. Is there any sure way - car's screen, service mode on the screen, crawling under the car, calling Tesla (is that even possible) to determine if the battery is original, a Tesla replacement, or a third party replacement?

You're going off into some really negative thinking here

And yes, I have gone down a dark path. But I don't gamble with $30-$40K and then put my head into the sand at a possible $20K, one year down the road. But it could also be that of my car purchases (~20) over the years only two were used and I knew everything about the car and owner on those. This is new ground for me.

 

[NV Ray]

Excellent point. Is there any sure way - car's screen, service mode on the screen, crawling under the car, calling Tesla (is that even possible) to determine if the battery is original, a Tesla replacement, or a third party replacement?

You can check the pack label located behind the right from passenger tire. Look up at the pack and the label will be there. If there is an R1 or higher after the T serial number then it's a refurbished pack. If not, it's an original pack to the car.

Please check your PM.

 

[Rocky_H]

I guess you haven't read as thoroughly as I have.

On this forum daily for a decade, so I highly doubt that.

There was at least one post indicating that Tesla will first charge you the $15k to $21K for the replacement, but will deny accepting the core charge on the messed-with pack. And that is an additional $20K.

Yes, I do remember that, which is an example of what I just said NOT to do with mix and match.

Now... considering there was much animosity in many of the posts and accusations of FUD, maybe you don't trust 057's word anymore.

Oh no, quite the opposite. Jason is extremely highly knowledgeable and skilled and knows exactly what he is talking about, and I have no doubt telling the truth on that. There were bad business decisions that led to problems with the company.

I do wonder, because the implication is if he worked on it (and went out of business) and we turned to Tesla, they would deny his service and say pony up the extra $20K.

Sure, that is a possible rare case, which is the outlier that I am talking about. If a company goes out of business, that is a thing that can happen, and can put people in a weird situation. The company that did my solar panel installation went out of business, and I had to call another company and pay out of pocket for them to remove and reinstall when we needed to have our roof reshingled. So this gets back to what I am saying. Recell seems very stable, and I would use them and stick with them, and I would not expect that they will go out of business. You seem to be really be trying to create a worst case scenario here to convince yourself to not buy a Tesla at all.

 

[brainhouston]

Someone posted recently that Tesla charges $10k for a core, not 20k...
But like others pointed out, why would any in warranty car (drive/battery 8yr) be messed with an HV pack?..

I think ur confusing urself with all the posts about out of warranty n salvage cars (in this case title will tell u)

If ur buying private party, just ask seller to show u warranty in app
If u buy from Tesla used inventory u'll get extra 1yr of warranty (not for drive/battery i believe)

 

[Inqling]

But like others pointed out, why would any in warranty car (drive/battery 8yr) be messed with an HV pack?..

Yes, already accepted my overzealous negativity on that aspect. No more lashings at the stake are required.

2016.11 MS P100D - I see you have the car/year I'm looking. Did you get it new or used? If used, did you get the SC01 successfully transferred? FSD???

 

[brainhouston]

2016.11 MS P100D - I see you have the car/year I'm looking. Did you get it new or used? If used, did you get the SC01 successfully transferred? FSD???

Mine is salvage from auction, still fixing it
Possibly has SC01 (charge screen says $0 for last session) but haven't added to the app to confirm...
No FSD, just Autopilot