Sorry, I actually like the new UI :)

[Boza]

Wondering how well @Tezlowski speaks German because your English is pretty good!

Please nudge those guys at VW/Audi/Porsche, BMW and MB to get their act together. We really need some good ol’ German car engineering in the EV space

 

[sleepydoc]

Wondering how well @Tezlowski speaks German because your English is pretty good!

Please nudge those guys at VW/Audi/Porsche, BMW and MB to get their act together. We really need some good ol’ German car engineering in the EV space

Yes! The fit, finish, interior quality and comfort of my MY is no match for the Audi A4 I used to drive. The Audi Driver interface was far better, too.

 

[Sporty]

Wondering how well @Tezlowski speaks German because your English is pretty good!

Please nudge those guys at VW/Audi/Porsche, BMW and MB to get their act together. We really need some good ol’ German car engineering in the EV space

It’s not the right place, but imo bwm is a mess. Bad leadership. Bad ui. Fire the people who are wedded to that freaking joystick controller. Also bad customer service. They need to take a step back and go refind themselves and get a clue on EVs while they’re at it.

Audi has a chance but the e-torn I owned was so far behind. I could see a vision but they don’t have the tech figured out yet. They need to go catch up now.

I had a Taycan reserved but didn’t follow through. I think (at the time) the M3P edged it out and my E-torn experience (same company) made me nervous. Poor range. Poor charging. Poor ‘go’ peddle. The owners of the car seem happy thou.

 

[smogne41]

It’s not the right place, but imo bwm is a mess. Bad leadership. Bad ui. Fire the people who are wedded to that freaking joystick controller. Also bad customer service. They need to take a step back and go refind themselves and get a clue on EVs while they’re at it.

Audi has a chance but the e-torn I owned was so far behind. I could see a vision but they don’t have the tech figured out yet. They need to go catch up now.

I had a Taycan reserved but didn’t follow through. I think (at the time) the M3P edged it out and my E-torn experience (same company) made me nervous. Poor range. Poor charging. Poor ‘go’ peddle. The owners of the car seem happy thou.

Everything I have seen about the Taycan suggests the real-world range is far better than Porsche claims, unless you really 'drive it like a Porsche' all the time

 

[qdeathstar]

You like the tire PSI as a hidden feature? Specially since the car does not have a low tire pressure warning.

You what? The car does have a low tire pressure warning. It’s currently on in mine….

 

[Big Dog]

for homelink users, is there a trick to cancelling? I frequently back the car out and park in teh driveway so I can putter in the garage. But I can't figure out how to stop the Auto-Close. Yes, I see the tiny 'cancel' (in ~4 pt font) below the homelink button, but hitting Cancel doesn't stop Homelink. Is this a swipe, or am I just a terrible aim. (If I go too low in tapping, the screen opens the Climate control, as the tiny Cancel spot is immediately above the temperature...)

 

[Boza]

It’s not the right place, but imo bwm is a mess. Bad leadership. Bad ui. Fire the people who are wedded to that freaking joystick controller. Also bad customer service. They need to take a step back and go refind themselves and get a clue on EVs while they’re at it.

Audi has a chance but the e-torn I owned was so far behind. I could see a vision but they don’t have the tech figured out yet. They need to go catch up now.

I had a Taycan reserved but didn’t follow through. I think (at the time) the M3P edged it out and my E-torn experience (same company) made me nervous. Poor range. Poor charging. Poor ‘go’ peddle. The owners of the car seem happy thou.

Yes, not a big fan of the BMW joystick either. I guess, it is their V11

If Audi figures out the range and regen (this whole thing with the wheel pedals and brake pedal is too much ICE) then they will become a very serious consideration.

Taycan is awesome but does not have the range. I need at least 400mi. Otherwise, that is the one to have. Even handling is levels above Tesla.

 

[Boza]

Now, when the defrost/seat heaters/navigation horse has been beaten to death without much effect, I have a question for the entertainment side of the UI.

I listen to podcasts a lot. In V10 I used to press the audio icon, pick the podcast from favorites and in the largest window I can see the episodes. I spent some time in V11 trying to accomplish the same thing, I managed to do it once but could not figured out how. Since I was driving I switched to Bluetooth and used the phone.

Is there an easy way to accomplish the same in V11? Pick a podcast and view all the episodes?

 

[AustinPowers]

Wondering how well @Tezlowski speaks German because your English is pretty good!

Please nudge those guys at VW/Audi/Porsche, BMW and MB to get their act together. We really need some good ol’ German car engineering in the EV space

Thank you.
If I had connections to someone high up in the German car industry I might try that ;-)

Actually, there already are a few extremely well engineered and more or less attractive German BEV models. Problem is they are, as per usual, several price brackets above the Model 3 or Model Y.

Cars like the Mercedes EQS, the BMW iX M60, i4 M50, Audi e-tron GT, or even the Porsche Taycan all combine excellent build quality, fit and finish plus luxury with handling and driving dynamics the German manufacturers are known for.
Unfortunately the prices also match what those manufacturers are known for.
But that does not take away from the fact that these cars exist, and for those who would never consider buying a Tesla (and believe me there are many, even if it may be hard to believe for us Tesla drivers) those are excellent alternatives.

 

[rjpjnk]

But I want a cheaper Tesla, not a more expensive one.

 

[john5520]

Actually, there already are a few extremely well engineered and more or less attractive German BEV models. Problem is they are, as per usual, several price brackets above the Model 3 or Model Y.

Extremely well engineered cars should be problem free or close to it. None of these German high-end models fit (or will fit) that bill. They all excel in certain areas and are poor in others.

The 3 and Y are great for what you get at their price point. It's tough to find cars with similar technology, performance, and overall reliability for a similar price.
And that minimalist interior is one the traits of Teslas that I actually like quite a bit.

 

[Boza]

All of those you mentioned have one major issue - efficiency and, consequently, range. I am particularly interested in Audi and Porsche and follow them closely. 200mi range in the USA is not sufficient. The distances here are much bigger than in EU. It looks like 400mi is the threshold where the mass adoption begins. If you think about it, the battery should not go above 90% and below 20% to retain SoC. So, 200mi become 140mi “usable”. If you drive in the mountains, especially in the winter, that drops to about 100mi usable. For comparison, my MS LR+ with 402mi (out of the factory) covers 200mi in the mountains with 90%->20%, barely. If I put a ski rack then I have to SC along the way.
Price-wise MS Plaid is in the range of Audi but the MS efficiency is way better. I think the Audi has 88kWh battery, Tesla has 100kWh - not double the capacity but almost double the range.
I test-drove the GT and I _loved_ the design and finish. However, it felt too much ICE; not even one pedal driving. My feelings are similar about the Taycan, although it is even higher, price-wise.
Considering that those are their first takes on EV, I would expect some serious improvement in the next few years. Almost as if they are where Tesla was 5-10 years ago but with the advantage of second mover.
Also, has anyone noticed that 2022 MS LR is $20k more than the last year model and 30miles shorter range?

 

[AustinPowers]

All of those you mentioned have one major issue - efficiency and, consequently, range. I am particularly interested in Audi and Porsche and follow them closely. 200mi range in the USA is not sufficient. The distances here are much bigger than in EU. It looks like 400mi is the threshold where the mass adoption begins.

But then it will be years before mass adoption, won't it? I mean, which currently available BEV, especially at the price point of a Model 3, offers even close to 400 miles of real world range per charge? After all that's almost 650 kilometers.

My 2019 Model 3 LR gets about 350 kilometers per charge under the best conditions, about 250 kilometers with resourceful driving on the Autobahn. Add in the 5 to 10 kilometers of range it loses every day just when parked in the garage depending on the outside temperatures. Not nearly as efficient as the stated WLTP figures would want me to believe.

 

[sleepydoc]

Extremely well engineered cars should be problem free or close to it. None of these German high-end models fit (or will fit) that bill. They all excel in certain areas and are poor in others.

The 3 and Y are great for what you get at their price point. It's tough to find cars with similar technology, performance, and overall reliability for a similar price.
And that minimalist interior is one the traits of Teslas that I actually like quite a bit.

Well, Teslas haven't exactly been problem free!

I actually like the minimalist interior of my Y. The problem is it requires moving all the controls to the screen. Physical knobs and buttons have an intrinsic advantage in that they are easy to operate, offer tactile feedback and can be operated without even looking at them, letting the driver keep his/her eyes on the road.

All of the Tesla loyalists will protest that 'you don't need to look away for that long,' but the fact is when you're driving a car there are times when it matters. There are thousands of accidents every year caused by distracted driving and car radios are actually a significant portion of them. Humans are poor judges of whether they are distracted and the universal statement by drivers is 'I just looked down for a second.' Except one second turns into 3 or 4. Suddenly you're 400 feet down the road, half way onto the shoulder and have a pedestrian on your hood.

Up until V11, Tesla did a fairly good job of making the interface easy and efficient to use. It was not as good as physical controls but it was close. V11 took a step in the wrong direction. People may argue that it's not that much worse, but virtually everything is incrementally worse. except accessing your phone or a game - two things which distract you while driving.

 

[Boza]

But then it will be years before mass adoption, won't it? I mean, which currently available BEV, especially at the price point of a Model 3, offers even close to 400 miles of real world range per charge? After all that's almost 650 kilometers.

My 2019 Model 3 LR gets about 350 kilometers per charge under the best conditions, about 250 kilometers with resourceful driving on the Autobahn. Add in the 5 to 10 kilometers of range it loses every day just when parked in the garage depending on the outside temperatures. Not nearly as efficient as the stated WLTP figures would want me to believe.

I was referring to USA. Tesla has some penetration in CA but it is still a novelty, definitely not a mass car. I vaguely remember article about a research (in the USA) that mentioned 400mi range (cost ignored) as the tipping point for customers. It certainly aligns with my use case. Aside from Lucid I don’t know of anyone close to 400mi of “real” range, not 100%-0% type of range.

My Tesla does around 270Wh/mile and that is almost spot on what Tesla claims. Don’t know about M3 but Audi GT is somewhere around 350-380Wh/mile. That is a significant difference.

 

[MacNeil]

Well, Teslas haven't exactly been problem free!

I actually like the minimalist interior of my Y. The problem is it requires moving all the controls to the screen. Physical knobs and buttons have an intrinsic advantage in that they are easy to operate, offer tactile feedback and can be operated without even looking at them, letting the driver keep his/her eyes on the road.

All of the Tesla loyalists will protest that 'you don't need to look away for that long,' but the fact is when you're driving a car there are times when it matters. There are thousands of accidents every year caused by distracted driving and car radios are actually a significant portion of them. Humans are poor judges of whether they are distracted and the universal statement by drivers is 'I just looked down for a second.' Except one second turns into 3 or 4. Suddenly you're 400 feet down the road, half way onto the shoulder and have a pedestrian on your hood.

Up until V11, Tesla did a fairly good job of making the interface easy and efficient to use. It was not as good as physical controls but it was close. V11 took a step in the wrong direction. People may argue that it's not that much worse, but virtually everything is incrementally worse. except accessing your phone or a game - two things which distract you while driving.

Distracted driving is definitely a big problem but the risks are somewhat offset by the warnings (and automated braking, etc.) generated by Teslas (and lots of other newer cars). Hard to say how many crashes, pedestrian fatalities and such are actually avoided with modern vehicle technology. Less distraction is obviously better but it would be interesting if any jurisdiction in North America or otherwise has mandated how car control systems must be designed; what level of distraction is acceptable. There is also matter of distractions that don't relate to actual driving like: changing seat heaters, audio, texting, checking tire pressure or energy efficiency, etc. Ultimately safe operation of the vehicle is the responsibility of the driver (no matter how the UI is laid out or changed). In many cases the driver needs to make a judgement about whether it is safe or not to fiddle with the controls; some things might be okay on a lightly travelled highway during daytime but would be pretty risky on a dark rainy night approaching a busy intersection.

 

[smogne41]

I live in the US, and mostly use our 2018 LR Model 3 for road trips. Most are around 200 miles, some are quite a bit longer. I just don't buy that 400 miles is a realistic need for most people (even those like me who take a lot of road trips), even though many of them seem to think it is. I think it is a combination of the general public: underestimating how many chargers are available, overestimating how long it takes to charge, and drastically overestimating how big their bladders are.

True, the perception of the need is there, but it can be countered over time. Not to say there is not a 5% out there who really do need 400 miles range legitimately, but it is no where the majority.

What people really will go for are cars they they both want to own (suit their needs and their style) and that they can afford. For the vast majority of people out there owning an EV is just a theoretical exercise at this point because one or both of those things are not yet satisfied. Oh yeah, also convenient home charging availability.

 

[Sporty]

I live in the US, and mostly use our 2018 LR Model 3 for road trips. Most are around 200 miles, some are quite a bit longer. I just don't buy that 400 miles is a realistic need for most people (even those like me who take a lot of road trips), even though many of them seem to think it is. I think it is a combination of the general public: underestimating how many chargers are available, overestimating how long it takes to charge, and drastically overestimating how big their bladders are.

True, the perception of the need is there, but it can be countered over time. Not to say there is not a 5% out there who really do need 400 miles range legitimately, but it is no where the majority.

What people really will go for are cars they they both want to own (suit their needs and their style) and that they can afford. For the vast majority of people out there owning an EV is just a theoretical exercise at this point because one or both of those things are not yet satisfied. Oh yeah, also convenient home charging availability.

I have a M3P. To me the bigger issue for me is the density of chargers. I’ve only taken a few long road trips. During those trips there were times where I had to stop because of the location of the SCs. Eg I couldn’t make it to the next one. And on one trip I had to go the wrong way in order to be able to drive out of where I was.

In an ice car I can normally “go one more exit” no problem. I look forward to the day L3 chargers are found on every other exit.

In any case, the range I have now works. It easily makes it from one SC to the next. (Some edge cases that have a charging gap not withstanding)

 

[MacNeil]

I have a M3P. To me the bigger issue for me is the density of chargers. I’ve only taken a few long road trips. During those trips there were times where I had to stop because of the location of the SCs. Eg I couldn’t make it to the next one. And on one trip I had to go the wrong way in order to be able to drive out of where I was.

In an ice car I can normally “go one more exit” no problem. I look forward to the day L3 chargers are found on every other exit.

In any case, the range I have now works. It easily makes it from one SC to the next. (Some edge cases that have a charging gap not withstanding)

We've had our M3LR since 2018 and totally agree that the density of SC's has changed so much over that time. We have lost some range with battery degradation but that is more than offset by the increased availability of SC's. In a way the effective range of the car has increased over the past 3-4 years.

 

[Boza]

See my real world example of a 400mi speced car with 200mi “real” range. It is the difference between 3hr and 5hr trip. Shorter range has cumulative effect, it is not only the time you spend at SC.