Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?

[stopcrazypp]

The truth of the matter is that no one here knows what Tesla's plans are, despite categorical statements by some to the contrary. Only time will tell. I would just point out that if Tesla planned "free" Supercharging for the Model 3, like the S & X, it sure is strange that they haven't announced it. I guess the only explanation for that is they don't want more orders. My explanation is that it opens them up to customers using them "aggressively" for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage (to borrow Tesla's words from their shareholder meeting). There's a ton of people who will do anything to save a buck and Tesla knows that, like we all do.

I've avoided jumping into this conversation, precisely because it doesn't really tell us what Tesla will do. We have had long threads about this and they went nowhere. We'll know more at the part two unveiling.

 

[Canuck]

I've avoided jumping into this conversation, precisely because it doesn't really tell us what Tesla will do. We have had long threads about this and they went nowhere. We'll know more at the part two unveiling.

Wait, didn't you just jump into it? ...

 

[Booga]

The truth of the matter is that no one here knows what Tesla's plans are, despite categorical statements by some to the contrary. Only time will tell. I would just point out that if Tesla planned "free" Supercharging for the Model 3, like the S & X, it sure is strange that they haven't announced it. I guess the only explanation for that is they don't want more orders. My explanation is that it opens them up to customers using them "aggressively" for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage (to borrow Tesla's words from their shareholder meeting). There's a ton of people who will do anything to save a buck and Tesla knows that, like we all do.

Except for people with very light driving (150 miles a week or less), I don't think using a Supercharger for local travel is going to be realistic whether Tesla allows it or not.

1) People will not want to go there and sit for a half hour regularly. The people in my life already find a 3 minute fillup at a gas station to be frustrating. Once they realize that even a 110V line on a regular basis will be enough, they'll switch very quickly.

2) The price difference is not that great. The people buying these cars make much more on a per hour basis than the cost of charging their car and so sitting around and waiting is not worth it. For most, it's not placed at a location that is really close by either.

 

[eisbock]

How can you not have access to a charge but access to a Supercharger? On plugshare, there's lots of public EVSE's located by the Superchargers. Yes, you might have to pay for them, and they won't be as fast, but there's many ways to charge other than by way of locals charging at Superchargers. If that happens, we can pretty much say 'goodbye' to long distance travel in our Tesla's since you can't expect Tesla to inspect everyone's home to see if they really don't have access to home charging; and we know people will use anything as an excuse to save a buck, especially if they have a Model 3 and a nearby Supercharger, which is going to be case once the hundreds of thousands of Model 3's start rolling off the assembly lines.

So... what you're saying is that if I don't have a home/work charging setup, my solution is to go to a public charging station and HOPE nobody is there, then charge my car for 6 hours and do... what exactly?

I live at home. I don't live at the Red Robin parking lot. How can you even suggest this is a feasible option for somebody who can't charge anywhere else? You seriously expect them to eat up what amounts to an entire day just to get a week's charge?

 

[Canuck]

So... what you're saying is that if I don't have a home/work charging setup, my solution is to go to a public charging station and HOPE nobody is there, then charge my car for 6 hours and do... what exactly?

I live at home. I don't live at the Red Robin parking lot. How can you even suggest this is a feasible option for somebody who can't charge anywhere else? You seriously expect them to eat up what amounts to an entire day just to get a week's charge?

I'm not suggesting it's a feasible option for everyone. I was just suggesting that most people who have access to a Supercharger probably have access to other options for charging. I know for me, if I couldn't charge at home, there's public chargers at the mall across the street from my office. Now, I wouldn't need them every day, but it would easily work for me. Others have charging at their office and that works for them. Some people have public chargers within walking distance of their home. But those who don't have any other option other than local Superchargers, like you, may want to think twice about buying a Tesla if your plan is for charging at the local Supercharger since that is not the purpose of the Superchargers, and it never has been the plan.

Supercharging

 

[stopcrazypp]

Wait, didn't you just jump into it? ...

Not really, I'm tiptoeing around it. I have my own opinion of what Tesla should do with the supercharger network (which I laid out in a different thread), but I'm not bringing it up here because I can see it igniting more discussion that doesn't really go anywhere.

 

[Drivin]

With regard to locals charging, Tesla frowns upon it,

How much they frown on something or make claims about what they intended or try to shame people by talking about being cool is completely irrelevant to one's rights to use the SC.

If they want to have what they intended, they need to make changes for people who are buying cars today. The fact that they haven't after this attempted shaming 8 months (?) ago, just shows that they don't care enough to change it.

 

[Canuck]

How much they frown on something or make claims about what they intended or try to shame people by talking about being cool is completely irrelevant to one's rights to use the SC.

If they want to have what they intended, they need to make changes for people who are buying cars today. The fact that they haven't after this attempted shaming 18 months (?) ago, just shows that they don't care enough to change it.

No, they don't need to make changes for Model S and X owners. There's just not enough of them to be too concerned about, plus we paid $2,500 in the price of our vehicles for Supercharging (except for those with 60's that didn't pay). Do you really expect the Model 3 to be able to charge free yet some 60 owners can't SC charge at all without payment of a fee of $2,500 to enable it?

Tesla — Enable Supercharging

The Model 3 will be a whole different ball game. This is mass market stuff. Not luxury vehicle numbers.

So to bring the discussion back, we're talking about the Model 3 here and whether those who don't have home charging can charge at SC's. My prediction is the Model 3 will be a pay per use SC system which will solve this problem.

because I can see it igniting more discussion that doesn't really go anywhere.

So some of the discussions here go somewhere? When has that ever happened?

Come on, jump in.

 

[TaoJones]

The truth of the matter is that no one here knows what Tesla's plans are, despite categorical statements by some to the contrary. Only time will tell. I would just point out that if Tesla planned "free" Supercharging for the Model 3, like the S & X, it sure is strange that they haven't announced it. I guess the only explanation for that is they don't want more orders. My explanation is that it opens them up to customers using them "aggressively" for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage (to borrow Tesla's words from their shareholder meeting). There's a ton of people who will do anything to save a buck and Tesla knows that, like we all do.

Well, I can tell this won't be a brief response... one good diatribe deserves another, and then we'll have to agree to disagree.

With regard to your diatribe prior to the post quoted above, the first point that comes to mind is that your lack of awareness of senior management's position and a misinterpretation of other statements does not entitle you to demand citations from owners/shareholders, neither of which you appear to be. Further, it does not appear that you've been to or have any experience whatsoever with any of the very few superchargers often cited as problem children. So with regard to what is therefore purely an academic discussion from your standpoint, let's begin:

Let's start with one of your "citations" - the picture of a crowded supercharger - as evidence of those darned freeloading locals - and let's for the sake of argument, pretend that they're all garaged locals, even though there's exactly no way for you to know this. As pointed out above, that's a DISTANCE supercharger - ain't no locals to speak of around there. Citing a rare example of a clogged DISTANCE SC during a busy holiday weekend rather weakens your attempt at a case persecuting virtually non-existent locals who may use DENSITY SCs. While occasional cases have occurred (see SJC), exceptions do not make the rule - not to mention that when you have (as was the case for years) a single SC in the densest county (county with the most owners on the continent), the root cause is clear. Now that there are 3 SCs in the OC, things will remain occasionally clogged until an SC goes into North San Diego County. That's a reality you won't get from an academic discussion.

Moving on to Elon's quote - again had you any experience with DENSITY SCs, you might have noted that the locals to which reference was made include LIVERY. Livery uses SCs up to 4x/day, whereas the average local *might* use an SC once a week. Before you go whining for quotes or question whether I have inside information, consider that I might have been told what I've typed above *by multiple livery owners* while they are supercharging. Again, if you want exceptions, great - but if you want actual trends as witnessed by those at ground zero of DENSITY SCs, well, that would presume you actually want real information rather than to merely persecute, or prosecute, the insignificant problem of locals with or without garages. Your approach is analogous to another victim of shallow thinking - voter fraud. To hear certain folks tell the story, America is overrun with voter fraud. What follows is the usual self-righteous pablum of people demanding citations and otherwise when in fact, cases of voter fraud in America are, wait for it, statistically insignificant.

Here's just one example and why I quoted your post above: For almost 2 years now, Tesla has committed to both DENSITY as well as DISTANCE for their supercharger rollout. The fact that you state otherwise does not make that reality any less true. While it is true that livery has been a challenge globally (see Schiphol, and the SCs between LAX and OC (John Wayne) airports), even their impact has been deemed manageable. Hence senior management's pronouncement last month (hint - as quoted in an electrek.co article), and Straubel's words as quoted in this very forum (surprised you missed that) - both referenced in my previous post. As much as you may not like it, DENSITY includes those darned non-garaged locals, and livery.

Finally, and this isn't directed at your attempts at arguments specifically, but toward anyone who actually thinks that those who can't charge at home or at work should not own a Tesla, simply be aware that such a position is 100% contrary to Tesla's very mission. As a shareholder, I find that to be decidedly unhelpful.

With regard to the fables about clogged SCs: Your own citations above fail to demonstrate an actual understanding of the problem on the ground rather than, and this is important, *what the problem COULD BE*. Capitals for emphasis - not shouting. And as an academic discussion, I say by all means, have at it. With regard to the Model 3, it makes sense for the base model to not have SCing enabled - solely because, at last estimate, 90% of owners do not use SCs. Further, with regard to the demographic in question, most people in metropolitan areas don't leave a 50-mile radius as a rule. I would note, and you may not have been around for this, when Iacocca launched the Mustang in 1964 (and a half), he insisted that it not have a radio - his intention was that it be as affordable as possible as he intended for it to be a family sedan. Point being that if I don't plan to SC, but know I can enable it at any time for a fee, I wouldn't want to pay for it either - see AP Convenience Features as a similar case.

Simply be aware that to continue to spread misinformation with regard to senior management's endorsement of free (I prefer "included") supercharging is simply disingenuous at best. And to persecute ALL locals is the same.

You won't find garaged locals in significant numbers at SCs because in the end, I believe that people are more lazy than cheap. You appear to believe that people are more cheap than lazy. OK, fine.

But herein is the fork in the road - I believe that Tesla has already thought this through, and yes, based upon the statements of which you are clearly unaware (business model fine to 1M cars, free supercharging sustainable indefinitely), there will be no hinky pay per use schemes. Context again is within the first 1M units and with the words "free" and "sustainable". All of this is published in the public domain and there if you'd bother searching for it - it is not my job to spoonfeed you citations just because you don't like the message and because I object to the persecution of locals, garaged or otherwise, when the company has been on record for almost two years to the contrary.

Well, I think that's everything so far - as far as the letter goes, it was and is indefensible as stated repeatedly by communications professionals in this very forum - again, a lack of awareness does not a credible argument make.

You either believe Tesla will manage SC demand just fine within the parameters (or lack thereof) stated above or you don't. I do. Have a little faith .

 

[FirstSea]

What if the 3 isn't the problem, instead it's people driving on their Bolt to charge their Powerwall??

 

[Zoomit]

Well, I can tell this won't be a brief response... one good diatribe deserves another, and then we'll have to agree to disagree.

With regard to your diatribe prior to the post quoted above, the first point that comes to mind is that your lack of awareness of senior management's position and a misinterpretation of other statements does not entitle you to demand citations from owners/shareholders, neither of which you appear to be. Further, it does not appear that you've been to or have any experience whatsoever with any of the very few superchargers often cited as problem children. So with regard to what is therefore purely an academic discussion from your standpoint, let's begin:

Let's start with one of your "citations" - the picture of a crowded supercharger - as evidence of those darned freeloading locals - and let's for the sake of argument, pretend that they're all garaged locals, even though there's exactly no way for you to know this. As pointed out above, that's a DISTANCE supercharger - ain't no locals to speak of around there. Citing a rare example of a clogged DISTANCE SC during a busy holiday weekend rather weakens your attempt at a case persecuting virtually non-existent locals who may use DENSITY SCs. While occasional cases have occurred (see SJC), exceptions do not make the rule - not to mention that when you have (as was the case for years) a single SC in the densest county (county with the most owners on the continent), the root cause is clear. Now that there are 3 SCs in the OC, things will remain occasionally clogged until an SC goes into North San Diego County. That's a reality you won't get from an academic discussion.

Moving on to Elon's quote - again had you any experience with DENSITY SCs, you might have noted that the locals to which reference was made include LIVERY. Livery uses SCs up to 4x/day, whereas the average local *might* use an SC once a week. Before you go whining for quotes or question whether I have inside information, consider that I might have been told what I've typed above *by multiple livery owners* while they are supercharging. Again, if you want exceptions, great - but if you want actual trends as witnessed by those at ground zero of DENSITY SCs, well, that would presume you actually want real information rather than to merely persecute, or prosecute, the insignificant problem of locals with or without garages. Your approach is analogous to another victim of shallow thinking - voter fraud. To hear certain folks tell the story, America is overrun with voter fraud. What follows is the usual self-righteous pablum of people demanding citations and otherwise when in fact, cases of voter fraud in America are, wait for it, statistically insignificant.

Here's just one example and why I quoted your post above: For almost 2 years now, Tesla has committed to both DENSITY as well as DISTANCE for their supercharger rollout. The fact that you state otherwise does not make that reality any less true. While it is true that livery has been a challenge globally (see Schiphol, and the SCs between LAX and OC (John Wayne) airports), even their impact has been deemed manageable. Hence senior management's pronouncement last month (hint - as quoted in an electrek.co article), and Straubel's words as quoted in this very forum (surprised you missed that) - both referenced in my previous post. As much as you may not like it, DENSITY includes those darned non-garaged locals, and livery.

Finally, and this isn't directed at your attempts at arguments specifically, but toward anyone who actually thinks that those who can't charge at home or at work should not own a Tesla, simply be aware that such a position is 100% contrary to Tesla's very mission. As a shareholder, I find that to be decidedly unhelpful.

With regard to the fables about clogged SCs: Your own citations above fail to demonstrate an actual understanding of the problem on the ground rather than, and this is important, *what the problem COULD BE*. Capitals for emphasis - not shouting. And as an academic discussion, I say by all means, have at it. With regard to the Model 3, it makes sense for the base model to not have SCing enabled - solely because, at last estimate, 90% of owners do not use SCs. Further, with regard to the demographic in question, most people in metropolitan areas don't leave a 50-mile radius as a rule. I would note, and you may not have been around for this, when Iacocca launched the Mustang in 1964 (and a half), he insisted that it not have a radio - his intention was that it be as affordable as possible as he intended for it to be a family sedan. Point being that if I don't plan to SC, but know I can enable it at any time for a fee, I wouldn't want to pay for it either - see AP Convenience Features as a similar case.

Simply be aware that to continue to spread misinformation with regard to senior management's endorsement of free (I prefer "included") supercharging is simply disingenuous at best. And to persecute ALL locals is the same.

You won't find garaged locals in significant numbers at SCs because in the end, I believe that people are more lazy than cheap. You appear to believe that people are more cheap than lazy. OK, fine.

But herein is the fork in the road - I believe that Tesla has already thought this through, and yes, based upon the statements of which you are clearly unaware (business model fine to 1M cars, free supercharging sustainable indefinitely), there will be no hinky pay per use schemes. Context again is within the first 1M units and with the words "free" and "sustainable". All of this is published in the public domain and there if you'd bother searching for it - it is not my job to spoonfeed you citations just because you don't like the message and because I object to the persecution of locals, garaged or otherwise, when the company has been on record for almost two years to the contrary.

Well, I think that's everything so far - as far as the letter goes, it was and is indefensible as stated repeatedly by communications professionals in this very forum - again, a lack of awareness does not a credible argument make.

You either believe Tesla will manage SC demand just fine within the parameters (or lack thereof) stated above or you don't. I do. Have a little faith .

TL;DR--are you a lawyer?

 

[Drivin]

No, they don't need to make changes for Model S and X owners. There's just not enough of them to be too concerned about, plus we paid $2,500 in the price of our vehicles for Supercharging (except for those with 60's that didn't pay). Do you really expect the Model 3 to be able to charge free yet some 60 owners can't SC charge at all without payment of a fee of $2,500 to enable it?

.

I said nothing about current owners, I said for people buying cars today (e.g. define specific rules for new owners, if they want to make a change).
Whether or not 60 owners opted to pay more to have SC included is irrelevant as to whether or not it is included in the price of a Model 3.

 

[sports4eva115]

Well, I can tell this won't be a brief response... one good diatribe deserves another, and then we'll have to agree to disagree.

With regard to your diatribe prior to the post quoted above, the first point that comes to mind is that your lack of awareness of senior management's position and a misinterpretation of other statements does not entitle you to demand citations from owners/shareholders, neither of which you appear to be. Further, it does not appear that you've been to or have any experience whatsoever with any of the very few superchargers often cited as problem children. So with regard to what is therefore purely an academic discussion from your standpoint, let's begin:

Let's start with one of your "citations" - the picture of a crowded supercharger - as evidence of those darned freeloading locals - and let's for the sake of argument, pretend that they're all garaged locals, even though there's exactly no way for you to know this. As pointed out above, that's a DISTANCE supercharger - ain't no locals to speak of around there. Citing a rare example of a clogged DISTANCE SC during a busy holiday weekend rather weakens your attempt at a case persecuting virtually non-existent locals who may use DENSITY SCs. While occasional cases have occurred (see SJC), exceptions do not make the rule - not to mention that when you have (as was the case for years) a single SC in the densest county (county with the most owners on the continent), the root cause is clear. Now that there are 3 SCs in the OC, things will remain occasionally clogged until an SC goes into North San Diego County. That's a reality you won't get from an academic discussion.

Moving on to Elon's quote - again had you any experience with DENSITY SCs, you might have noted that the locals to which reference was made include LIVERY. Livery uses SCs up to 4x/day, whereas the average local *might* use an SC once a week. Before you go whining for quotes or question whether I have inside information, consider that I might have been told what I've typed above *by multiple livery owners* while they are supercharging. Again, if you want exceptions, great - but if you want actual trends as witnessed by those at ground zero of DENSITY SCs, well, that would presume you actually want real information rather than to merely persecute, or prosecute, the insignificant problem of locals with or without garages. Your approach is analogous to another victim of shallow thinking - voter fraud. To hear certain folks tell the story, America is overrun with voter fraud. What follows is the usual self-righteous pablum of people demanding citations and otherwise when in fact, cases of voter fraud in America are, wait for it, statistically insignificant.

Here's just one example and why I quoted your post above: For almost 2 years now, Tesla has committed to both DENSITY as well as DISTANCE for their supercharger rollout. The fact that you state otherwise does not make that reality any less true. While it is true that livery has been a challenge globally (see Schiphol, and the SCs between LAX and OC (John Wayne) airports), even their impact has been deemed manageable. Hence senior management's pronouncement last month (hint - as quoted in an electrek.co article), and Straubel's words as quoted in this very forum (surprised you missed that) - both referenced in my previous post. As much as you may not like it, DENSITY includes those darned non-garaged locals, and livery.

Finally, and this isn't directed at your attempts at arguments specifically, but toward anyone who actually thinks that those who can't charge at home or at work should not own a Tesla, simply be aware that such a position is 100% contrary to Tesla's very mission. As a shareholder, I find that to be decidedly unhelpful.

With regard to the fables about clogged SCs: Your own citations above fail to demonstrate an actual understanding of the problem on the ground rather than, and this is important, *what the problem COULD BE*. Capitals for emphasis - not shouting. And as an academic discussion, I say by all means, have at it. With regard to the Model 3, it makes sense for the base model to not have SCing enabled - solely because, at last estimate, 90% of owners do not use SCs. Further, with regard to the demographic in question, most people in metropolitan areas don't leave a 50-mile radius as a rule. I would note, and you may not have been around for this, when Iacocca launched the Mustang in 1964 (and a half), he insisted that it not have a radio - his intention was that it be as affordable as possible as he intended for it to be a family sedan. Point being that if I don't plan to SC, but know I can enable it at any time for a fee, I wouldn't want to pay for it either - see AP Convenience Features as a similar case.

Simply be aware that to continue to spread misinformation with regard to senior management's endorsement of free (I prefer "included") supercharging is simply disingenuous at best. And to persecute ALL locals is the same.

You won't find garaged locals in significant numbers at SCs because in the end, I believe that people are more lazy than cheap. You appear to believe that people are more cheap than lazy. OK, fine.

But herein is the fork in the road - I believe that Tesla has already thought this through, and yes, based upon the statements of which you are clearly unaware (business model fine to 1M cars, free supercharging sustainable indefinitely), there will be no hinky pay per use schemes. Context again is within the first 1M units and with the words "free" and "sustainable". All of this is published in the public domain and there if you'd bother searching for it - it is not my job to spoonfeed you citations just because you don't like the message and because I object to the persecution of locals, garaged or otherwise, when the company has been on record for almost two years to the contrary.

Well, I think that's everything so far - as far as the letter goes, it was and is indefensible as stated repeatedly by communications professionals in this very forum - again, a lack of awareness does not a credible argument make.

You either believe Tesla will manage SC demand just fine within the parameters (or lack thereof) stated above or you don't. I do. Have a little faith .

good lord... someone has a lot of time on their hands... didn't even bother -_-

 

[pedriscoll]

This horse has been more than beaten to death, it has been crushed, cremated and scattered to the four winds. However I will add my opinion as simply an owner and EV enthusiast.

The solution for those without home charging is and will be the availability of supercharging. Elon has repeatedly stated that. How that will be financed when there are 1 million plus Tesla's on the road is known only to Tesla. Personally I do not think that free supercharging forever for millions of cars is sustainable. It would not be difficult to set up a pay per use or timed subscription model. It would make sense to make the cost slightly more expensive than home charging to encourage that, but not high enough to be a burden to those who simply do not have access to home charging. As one who does 90 percent of his driving in town and has a supercharger within 10 miles, I have never used the local supercharger. Home charging is so much more convenient. With my 50 mile per day driving I would have to sit at the supercharger for 30 minutes or so 1-2 times weekly, when I take 15 seconds at most daily plugging and unplugging at home. I have business trips of 200-300 miles several time a month and use the superchargers along the way for those. Here in Indiana, the locations are all along major interstates and there are generally 0-2 cars there when I charge.

Tesla's challenge will be to gauge the demand and continue to build out the network with both density and distance SC's to keep up. The supercharger network is Tesla's true ace in the hole against GM, Nissan, BMW, and Porsche. None of them seem to have any interest in developing a long distance charging solution, and without that all their EV's are just city cars.

 

[Drivin]

good lord... someone has a lot of time on their hands... didn't even bother -_-

and yet you have enough time to tell us that you didn't bother and to have a substance-free addition to this topic.
go figure.

 

[sports4eva115]

and yet you have enough time to tell us that you didn't bother and to have a substance-free addition to this topic.
go figure.

Yup! 30 sec vs however long that post took!
I appreciate the post being there for people who actually want to read it. Great contribution!

 

[Garlan Garner]

My bottom line. If I pay for supercharging....I'm going to use it. Local or not.

No one is going to sell me something and then tell me I can't use it. Period.

 

[JeffK]

Original supercharging fee was outrageous...
Sure there's a convenience and maintenance factor but the original $2000 at the typical electricity price in the midwest of $0.12/kW would have paid for nearly 16,667 kW of electricity. If 60kW lasted you a week then it would take over five years straight of charging solely at a supercharger to make up that expense at current energy prices assuming they received no discount for non-peak charging.

If the supercharger has land with solar panels and Tesla power racks then the costs to Tesla beside the initial build and ongoing maintenance would be virtually nothing for the electricity itself as long as the sun still shines.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I used EVtrip and it evaluated that if I drove a MS85D 100 miles ( 49 miles each way to work) then it would cost me $1.60 to charge my Tesla back up.

Really? Do you know how many charges I would get for the price I pay for Super Charging? Come on.... A Multi Billion dollar company is going to squabble with me over $1.60 every 2 to 3 days? Come on.

 

[JeffK]

Tesla spokesperson to the New York Times late last year:

"We wanted to move to an urban charging network that meets the needs of those who live in apartments or commute into a big city

There are some people who don't have a choice. Either they have no house to charge at or they'd have to pay outrageous prices at some of the local level 2 charging stations (higher cost to charge than a tank of gas).