Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

SolarCity (SCTY)

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
With SCTY near its low point of support (around $47), is it fair to say it will climb again as we go through the end of this year?

The company only seems to grow and grow, as far as I can see, and they business model seems solid. Surely it's only a matter of time before investors realise SCTY should cost more than it does?
 
With SCTY near its low point of support (around $47), is it fair to say it will climb again as we go through the end of this year?

The company only seems to grow and grow, as far as I can see, and they business model seems solid. Surely it's only a matter of time before investors realise SCTY should cost more than it does?

The record number of shorts would argue against that line of thought but I think this is set up to be one of the great investment opportunities in Life. If Solar City executes over the next 6 months there should be fireworks.
 
With SCTY near its low point of support (around $47), is it fair to say it will climb again as we go through the end of this year?

The company only seems to grow and grow, as far as I can see, and they business model seems solid. Surely it's only a matter of time before investors realise SCTY should cost more than it does?

The market does not seem to understand net retained value. The market cap of $5B on $3.1B retained value is a ratio of 1.66. This seems really too low for a company that is likely to grow retained value by 80% or more for the next couple of years. It's as if the market expects the DevCo to stop creating economic value in 2017. SolarCity should be trading at a high multiple of retained value, but even at a fixed multiple like 1.66 the stock price should grow by 80% or so over the next 12 months. So clearly the market does not know what sort of multiple to go with. Any fixed multiple would at some time connect stock price with growth in the business, which would make for a truly explosive stock. But clearly the market is not looking at SolarCity in this way. I consider SolarCity to be both a growth and value stock, which only can happen when a stock is deeply misunderstood at a fundamental level.
 
The market does not seem to understand net retained value. The market cap of $5B on $3.1B retained value is a ratio of 1.66. This seems really too low for a company that is likely to grow retained value by 80% or more for the next couple of years. It's as if the market expects the DevCo to stop creating economic value in 2017. SolarCity should be trading at a high multiple of retained value, but even at a fixed multiple like 1.66 the stock price should grow by 80% or so over the next 12 months. So clearly the market does not know what sort of multiple to go with. Any fixed multiple would at some time connect stock price with growth in the business, which would make for a truly explosive stock. But clearly the market is not looking at SolarCity in this way. I consider SolarCity to be both a growth and value stock, which only can happen when a stock is deeply misunderstood at a fundamental level.

Jhm,

The market doesn't like revenue uncertainty. That's really what's happening here. Look at the history of the stock drop. Most of what we're seeing is a result of net metering/charge changes and cap's on how much net metering can happen. Think about it, if Arizona utiltiy can shut down the entire market there with a charge or change to net metering, how easy would that be across the entire country? The roof top market is vast only if caps are lifted and stability of charges/net metering occurs. We should be looking at the caps of each state and calculate the actual market size. For example, at current growth rates, California could hit its cap in about 1.5 years... If there is not a policy in place before that, the roof top industry will grind to a stop. Looks at what NV Engery is doing right now if you don't think the cap is an significant influence on the roof top industry market uncertainty. Solarcity may have 40m residential roof tops in their addressable market, but with caps, net metering uncertainties as well as added charge uncertainty, that market is actually only a few million.

The Bottomline is Solarcity and roof top solar need to have legal actions step in and provide the competitive certainty they require against a non legal monopoly abuse of power and position. Until then, Solarcity is significantly undervalued. Significantly. No question about it. But there needs to be some legal intervention to allow the stock to rise to actual value.
 
Interesting, didn't know about this. What do you guys think? Seems like a good plan.....

SolarCity Has a New Plan to Make Distributed Energy an Integral Part of the Grid : Greentech Media


It's all about that aggregation. Here is a website Solarcity just put up about it. "Grid Engineering" page:

Grid Resiliency – Distributed Energy Resources| SolarCity

"With the increasingly widespread deployment of distributed energy resources (DERs), the operational characteristics of theelectric distribution grid are evolving. Many utilities worried about the real and perceived impacts of DERs on the grid arespecifying equipment upgrades to mitigate their concerns. However, these mitigation requirements are often based onoutdated standards created for traditional distributed generators (i.e. rotating machines) or made without regard to theadvanced capabilities of modern DERs, which can often preempt the concerns underlying the proposed mitigations. Theresult is that utilities are requiring overly conservative, often unnecessary and ultimately costly upgrades as a condition of DER interconnection. A reexamination of these traditional approaches is needed. "

It's going to be hard for utilities to argue against the value of roof top solar to ALL RATE PAYERS once this information becomes wide spread and evaluated by commissions and stake holders. Net metering is going to change to reflect the ACTUAL VALUE roof top solar provides, and that means more for each kWh produced, not less.

At the end of the day, after all these battles with certain utilities have been fought, the facts are facts, the numbers are real, appropriate compensation for roof top solar will happen regardless of the rhetoric spewed. The evidence is just overwhelming and indisputable and can't be undone.
 
Last edited:
It's all about that aggregation. Here is a website Solarcity just put up about it. "Grid Engineering" page:

Grid Resiliency – Distributed Energy Resources| SolarCity


[COLOR=rgb(34.900000%, 34.900000%, 34.900000%)]"With the increasingly widespread deployment of distributed energy resources (DERs), the operational characteristics of theelectric distribution grid are evolving. Many utilities worried about the real and perceived impacts of DERs on the grid arespecifying equipment upgrades to mitigate their concerns. However, these mitigation requirements are often based onoutdated standards created for traditional distributed generators (i.e. rotating machines) or made without regard to theadvanced capabilities of modern DERs, which can often preempt the concerns underlying the proposed mitigations. Theresult is that utilities are requiring overly conservative, often unnecessary and ultimately costly upgrades as a condition ofDER interconnection. A reexamination of these traditional approaches is needed. "[/COLOR]


nice.
 
http://investors.solaredge.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=253935&p=irol-eventDetails&EventId=5199605

If you're interested in SolarEdge, I would recommend this Web cast from Canaccord. Explains both technology and growth strategy. Very nice overview.

Note that SolarEdge has an headquarter in Fremont, CA. They are not interested in any exclusive partnership with Tesla or any other company.

Regarding technology, there is a good description of their strategy. Traditionally inverters have done two functions, optimize DC power and invert DC to AC. String inverters put multiple panels on a single inverter but where there is variation in power from panel to panel, the string voltage drops to the lowest and power is lost elsewhere in the string. Microinverters get around this by having one small inverter per panel, but this is costly and and a critical component in the inverter ages more rapidly when installed outside with the panel. So SolarEdge breaks down the inverter into two components. There is the power optimizer which is mounted on the back of each panel and can be monitored separately remotely for performance diagnostics. Then multiple power optimizers feed into centralized inverters. These inverters are shielded from the environment for longer life and are more easily replaced after 15 years. These inverters are simplified in that they do not need to perform the power optimization function. So both optimizers and inverters are simplified and reduced to minimal size and cost. The architecture is able to realize the benefits module level optimization of Microinverters with the cost and longevity of centralized inverters with string inverters. They claim to have the lowest LCOE (lifetime) cost in the business.

Moreover, this technology is scalable and the are working on next generation larger inverters for commercial and utility applications. They point out that there is not yet a truly major player in the commercial installation space. They seem to have hopes for SunEdison, but of course I'd like to see SolarCity get deeper into this segment.

In terms of co-located manufacturing with SolarCity, it seems desirable to install power optimizers directly into panels at the factory. The inverters could be manufactured elsewhere, but the optimizers may well benefit from co-location.
 
Last edited:
There is no truly major player in the commercial installation space in the past. Solar city was the largest installer but It sounds like they are about to become as dominant in the commercial sector as they have been in the residential! I hope the q3 and q4 numbers show some large commercial installations.

I am expecting both of them to break Solar City records on commercial installation and for q4 to really go nuts.
 
Possible to see a good day for Scty tomorrow. Arizona commission pushed Aps rate raising decision to the hearing process, which is estimated to last until as far out as May 2016 as of right now. The big ticket item will be a value of roof top solar, cost and benefits on the grid analysis. Sounds like if the analysis is done by an independent third party, solar industry is confident they will find roof top solar a benefit to te grid and not a cost shift in any meaningful way. Arizona utitlity's entire reason for a rate increase is based on a cost shift by solar; however, if roof top solar is determined to be a benefit to the grid, then the entire Arizona utiltiy arguement for a rate increase is blown away.Overall, solar installs will continue in APS service territory as they did yesterday and look to continue as such through the end of the year. Solarcity will continue to operated at full steam ahead. Worst case scenario avoided. Market ought to respond in kind.
 
Possible to see a good day for Scty tomorrow. Arizona commission pushed Aps rate raising decision to the hearing process, which is estimated to last until as far out as May 2016 as of right now. The big ticket item will be a value of roof top solar, cost and benefits on the grid analysis. Sounds like if the analysis is done by an independent third party, solar industry is confident they will find roof top solar a benefit to te grid and not a cost shift in any meaningful way. Arizona utitlity's entire reason for a rate increase is based on a cost shift by solar; however, if roof top solar is determined to be a benefit to the grid, then the entire Arizona utiltiy arguement for a rate increase is blown away.Overall, solar installs will continue in APS service territory as they did yesterday and look to continue as such through the end of the year. Solarcity will continue to operated at full steam ahead. Worst case scenario avoided. Market ought to respond in kind.

Ra be pleased. Otherwise, some smiting would be in order.
 
God-parity

Why will be the end of centralised generation : Renew Economy

When rooftop solar becomes less than the T&D cost of the grid, Ra will be pleased. This is dubbed, "God-parity." We've been discussing it quite a bit here. Nationally, T&D is about 5c/kWh. So rooftop has a way to go, but is is coming. Not mentioned by this article is that the battery cost of storage also is headed below that threshold. When that happens, the grid becomes an expensive form of storage, think net metering as a way to use the grid to store energy for later consumption. This is the folly of utilities fighting net metering.
 
Possible to see a good day for Scty tomorrow. Arizona commission pushed Aps rate raising decision to the hearing process, which is estimated to last until as far out as May 2016 as of right now. The big ticket item will be a value of roof top solar, cost and benefits on the grid analysis. Sounds like if the analysis is done by an independent third party, solar industry is confident they will find roof top solar a benefit to te grid and not a cost shift in any meaningful way. Arizona utitlity's entire reason for a rate increase is based on a cost shift by solar; however, if roof top solar is determined to be a benefit to the grid, then the entire Arizona utiltiy arguement for a rate increase is blown away.Overall, solar installs will continue in APS service territory as they did yesterday and look to continue as such through the end of the year. Solarcity will continue to operated at full steam ahead. Worst case scenario avoided. Market ought to respond in kind.

This is great news, So it does not matter that they are about to hit the net metering cap? I was a little concerned if Arizona shut down solar as well.
 
Foghat, you seem to have the right idea as to why SCTY has been suppressed for this long. It has puzzled me quite a bit. The regulatory uncertainty is a sure risk, especially net-metering battles. You are very right that we are looking at the addressable market the wrong way. The addressable market is capped out at where net-metering caps are. Behind the meter generation+storage is really long ways away from being economically compelling for vast majority of the market. Solar aggregation is really a slow process in my view as that involves utilities. I hope to see some positive news from Arizona but market seems to be seeing the opposite.

Worst case scenario, what's the end game here? SCTY gets locked out gradually as net-metering caps are met in various states. Maybe SCTY can keep going to more states and more countries. Or maybe SCTY can get into utility solar projects. What about commercial/industrial applications. Is net-metering that crucial there? In other words, is there sizeable addressable market behind-the-meter there?

Sure in 2030 (or whatever year) net-metering won't matter. Panels + Batteries will be so efficient and so cheap that utilities will no longer be needed for a sizable addressable market. But until then what's the game?

What's each of your worst case scenarios? Would love to hear your opinions.
 
Foghat, you seem to have the right idea as to why SCTY has been suppressed for this long. It has puzzled me quite a bit. The regulatory uncertainty is a sure risk, especially net-metering battles. You are very right that we are looking at the addressable market the wrong way. The addressable market is capped out at where net-metering caps are. Behind the meter generation+storage is really long ways away from being economically compelling for vast majority of the market. Solar aggregation is really a slow process in my view as that involves utilities. I hope to see some positive news from Arizona but market seems to be seeing the opposite.

Worst case scenario, what's the end game here? SCTY gets locked out gradually as net-metering caps are met in various states. Maybe SCTY can keep going to more states and more countries. Or maybe SCTY can get into utility solar projects. What about commercial/industrial applications. Is net-metering that crucial there? In other words, is there sizeable addressable market behind-the-meter there?

Sure in 2030 (or whatever year) net-metering won't matter. Panels + Batteries will be so efficient and so cheap that utilities will no longer be needed for a sizable addressable market. But until then what's the game?

What's each of your worst case scenarios? Would love to hear your opinions.


Well, the key with net metering debate is a value of solar study by an independent organization. It is clear utilties are not liking this idea because the 8 independent commissioned studies out there now show the benefits outweigh the costs to all rate payers on the grid. In light of this independent evidence, utilties can not claim solar users shift costs onto non solar customers.

right now, many utilties are saying there is a cost shift without any sort of objective study on the value of solar. It's like they are saying that it is a cost, so everyone has to believe it as fact. So, inherently, utilties are starting from a weak position. it is a matter of getting more support for DG benefits from more and more studies to use as a baseline to judge what "cost shifts" are happening. Again, the entire foundation of utitlies arguement is around net metering cost shifting to non solar. If that turns out to be not the case, then utitlies will lose their entire ability to arbitrarily raise new charges, or reduce net metering rates.

Arizona APS, as far as I know, is NOT a capped net metering program, so Solarcity could turn as many rooftops solar as physically possible between now and the end of the hearing process, which last into 2016. Then, after the net metering benefits study concludes net benefits, we could see another boom to finish out the ITC into 2017. Let's not forget, the ITC could be extended again or end up being greater then 10% so that would be a massive boon. 2016 is going to be a wild year, my opinion is it will end up very positive for Solarcity.

I think aggregation is going to be a reality sooner then you might think. It clearly is dependent on tesla energy production ramp. If tesla can pump out a lot of batteries next year, and Elon has already indicated they potentially are looking at $500mln in 2016 sales, then Solarcity will easily install well over 10k solar+storage systems. In california right now they are discussing how to integrate these assets into the grid, ref: Solarcity white paper on their gridx website. From that white paper, Solarcity has already gamed all the questions utitlities will raise about costs. Solarcity has also outlined all the mitigations to those costs. also, they will be working under PURPA, not net metering with solar + storage so they bypass the net metering issues.

My feeling is that Solarcity is well ahead of the game here and will implement solar+storage next year in large numbers, which will override many of the net metering/cap delays utilties want to make happen. Specifically in California they are already working to implement this new DG program and its my belief california will go the DG priority order idea route. Along with New York, and possibly Hawaii, there will be overwhelming evidence for this new energy structure for the rest of the country to follow.

the Massachusetts cap is being doubled, the New Jersey cap is also being raised, and New York is sure to follow since they are already booked to hit the cap in many utiltiy territories already. So, the cap issue seems to be being address by various states already.

I feel the rest of this year will be volatile and 2016 will be no different, but as the evidence rolls in on the value of solar as well as Solarcity's plan being worked on in.california a good year and half ahead of the california cap being hit, we might really see a strong response on the market.

For me, I continue to accumulate shares at these prices as much as possible. Believe me, I've had opportunities to put my money elsewhere and make more over the last year or so, but I'm making the bet this works out over the next 2 years in a really big way... And continue for literally decades to come. I'm obviously in the long game here.
 
Last edited:
I think the big factor driving down solar right now is the crash in oil prices. Oil is down about 3% today hitting 42$/bbl, while solar ETF TAN is down 4%. TAN is exposed to the global solar market, so regulatory issues in certain US states should not weigh in too heavily.

I've been working on a theory about what is happening in oil, but am not prepared to elaborate it at this time. Let me give you a sketch. Fracking natural gas has driven the price of natural gas down about 90%. Both natural gas and coal have come down about 75% in the last five years, but the decent of coal started just four years ago. I believe that the decline of natural gas has put economic pressure on coal. There has been a lag in switching due to the time it takes to replace coal plants with natural gas plants. But as this has kicked in the price of natural gas has stabilized while coal has fallen. Just before old began to fall natural gas began to tumble again along with coal. So while the substitution of coal was supporting natural gas prices, the competition between natural gas and oil products was held at bay. Now the natural gas is falling again, it is displacing demand for oil. This is why oil is crashing, and I believe oil may need to fall to about 25$/bbl to reach parity with natural gas and stop the substitution.

But here's the really funny thing, why are both natural gas and coal prices falling? If it was just a matter of coal reaching parity, then the falling would have stopped over a year ago. It very well may be that wind and solar are continuing to erode demand for both natural gas and coal. With the cost of solar continuing to fall there may never be floor for natural gas, coal or oil. All these fuels will jokey with each other for share in an ever shrinking market. So the question for the solar investor is whether fuel prices can fall fast enough to slow solar. I do not believe this is possible, but I suspect that many investors do believe this. And so solar stocks will decline as oil plummets.
 
SB374 Net Metering Cap

NV energy net metering cap will be hit in a couple of days(maybe sooner)... Just when the Nevada commission meets to workshop the interim tariff. That meeting on Friday will be high drama because if they dont come to a agreement on an interim net metering/tariff plan the entire industry comes to a grinding halt that day. No one will be able to sell a single system. All sales operations will halt in the entire state. Solarcity Addressable market in Nevada goes to ZERO. Massive implications on Friday.

The best case scenario is that that they continue current net metering under the interim tariff decided on Friday. This interim tariff would last up to the start of 2016.

again, if they extend the current net metering under the interim tariff structure, the stock will see a big boost this coming Monday. If not, will continue to see these bottom feeder stock prices.

possible that they hit the cap tomorrow even... In that case, this could be new lows for Scty this week since possible many days of no sales ahead which could translate into reduced bookings going into q3 report and lower revenue and install potentially in q4. And this is just if they continue the net metering in the interim... If they decide to tack on fees and reduce net metering it could be far worse. Again, this is if Solarcity hasn't already adjusted sales mix to other states in anticipation of a potential worst case scenario.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.