Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

SolarCity (SCTY)

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I thought IVs main input is recent stock price volatility?
Not really. That is the historical volatility. IV is the implied volatility, meaning the option premium agreed upon between the buyers and sellers on the date of the transaction reflects the current uncertainty of the market about the likelihood that the stock will be in the money on the expiry date. IOW, the input for the IV is the current option price (hence the name), and is therefore forward-looking.

Edit: I dug up and old post of mine about IV that contains more detail.
 
Last edited:
You have to look at the SCTY value proposition and work backwards.

If their competitive advantage is based on the ability to create a convoluted financing scheme that removes all the hassle and up-front money from the process of "going solar", would they want to hand the blueprint to SUNE?
You are quite correct, of course. It is quite possible that they have a supremely profitable financing scheme and have managed to keep it opaque enough that nobody else can clone it. If you're right, then it's a great investment. I am not comfortable say8ing that they're right.

It's 2016, folks like SBenson and institutional investors can take the data available and create their own simplified model that loosely represents the inputs/outputs of the SCTY model to gauge approximate profitability. We know install costs, we know the amounts "financed", we can back out installs from total expense and see how much debt is being built up to expand.
But not the rates.

But that's not even the most important part of their product, anyone can finance and banks are now working with local installers to provide a million different near-zero-down products for purchases.
That's the lack of competitive advantage which I worry about.
What SCTY provides is truly full service solar at a price that's lower than what your utility charges. As we move through this transition period people are going to need a full service energy provider to guide them through the various stages.
So basically you're saying they're going to be able to charge a premium because people are lazy, won't do their homework, and will want a "turnkey" solution. OK; that makes sense. I don't see why that can't be cloned by, well, anyone, including local installers. The financing is harder to clone.

We are making our won power now, a third party having your back with things like storage solutions will be a vital for keeping costs down.

As for cheaper grid prices.....Utilities are quietly divesting from production in the US just like they did in Germany once distributed solar gained any traction, there is simply no money in fossil production once distributed solar is in place. Does that sound like a scenario where grid rates will ever go down?
Um.... yes?

I live in New York. Our utilities were already required to divest from production, years ago. All the power plants are "merchant plants". Utility-scale wind and solar can sell into this market with great success, as you might expect.

Once an open market is created a few years down the line, solar homeowners will likely see some insanely cheap juice on offer from the new grid, but with transmission charges that's unlikely to be a compelling purchase options. Especially since they'll have all the juice they want at the very same time.
Transmission charges have already been raised to cover transmission costs where I live. Transmission costs are at 4 cents -- it might go up to 7, maybe, but probably won't go up at all. There's also a flat service charge per month of $15/month for having a grid connection at *all*, and *this* actually is fairly likely to go up.

Add 4 cents for transmission to future utility solar at 4 cents or less, and you have 8 cents/kwh. Good luck beating that with rooftop solar. Rooftop solar has some value due to grid-independence, but it's actually going to be quite tough for rooftop solar to compete with the grid on price.

Now, if you can go completely off grid and cut the monthly "grid access fee", you have a better value proposision. But *here*, to go off grid you need to be able to ride out a snowstorm: SCTY is simply not selling a system which will do off-grid in the Northeast, and has no plans to do so, as far as I can tell.

SCTY can and will be able to charge a massive premium to local installers because they provide considerably more value than simply installed solar panels(Keeping in mind that SCTY installs at a loss in newer markets like southeast PA). With the trajectory of installation costs and the rapid spread of solar knowledge throughout the customer base, this will all shake out in a matter of a few quarters. The PPA model will either remain compelling or will be trimmed by super low cost installs, that's for the individual investor to decide. I see the market as 50/50 PPA/purchase today and in the future. As things gets more complex over the next couple years, it may even shift more toward full service PPA.
In territories like NY where the transmission operator has completely divested from generation, I see residential retail-level PPAs dying completely because they will be more expensive than grid power. Perhaps looking at different utility territories is giving us different perspectives. I think of the NY model as being the future, but it's possible that stupidity will reign in other states...

The battery business is another matter entirely; I see the battery business as competing with the cost of *upgrading your electrical service*. Most people's heavy electrical loads don't last long. A big enough battery could be an alternative to upgrading to 400 amp service, and for *that'* a battery is quite competitively priced. But Tesla owns the value in the batteries, not SCTY...
 
...........

The battery business is another matter entirely; I see the battery business as competing with the cost of *upgrading your electrical service*. Most people's heavy electrical loads don't last long. A big enough battery could be an alternative to upgrading to 400 amp service, and for *that'* a battery is quite competitively priced. But Tesla owns the value in the batteries, not SCTY...

Service doesn't need to be upgraded for momentary loads. The reason to upgrade service would be a large continuous load such as running two central ACs while charging two EVs.

It is interesting that Tesla Energy has apparently started selling batteries directly to consumers. I didn't expect this approach, and I'm not sure what this change in strategy indicates.
 
Service doesn't need to be upgraded for momentary loads.

Maybe momentary is the wrong word. Not long-term.

Been there, done that.

I'm talking *big* short-term loads like the startup of a geothermal pump. It uses rather little power in steady state, but the startup load is massive, and it was blowing my parents' main breaker until they upgraded. There's a surprisingly large number of things like that, often associated with heating and cooling. Many of them are probably reschedulable (which helps with making sure they don't *all happen at once*) but most of them are not actually set up to be rescheduled. Adding a battery is a way to do it which requires less work than replacing all the heating and cooling equipment with "smart" equipment.
 
Whether SolarCity's earnings report contains positive or negative data I fully expect it to be spun negatively by the media. To this end Chanos and other shorts will aggressively attack in a full out effort to collapse the share price. I'm not complaining, only solidifying my long term view. Optimism, pessimism, f$&k that, as god is my witness I'm hell bent on seeing this happen......
 
Whether SolarCity's earnings report contains positive or negative data I fully expect it to be spun negatively by the media. To this end Chanos and other shorts will aggressively attack in a full out effort to collapse the share price. I'm not complaining, only solidifying my long term view. Optimism, pessimism, f$&k that, as god is my witness I'm hell bent on seeing this happen......

I am 90% certain it will plunge yet again. If not for some stupid amateurish Doha panic trades I would have been sitting pretty right now, but I'm out of ammo. I'm going to ride it down into the teens like I always do but I am just as confident things will turn around in the next year or 2. or 3 or 4. :oops:
 
Joe Stack (Analyst - RBC) said:
And are you willing to provide an update to those initial targets?
Elon Musk (Chairman and CEO) said:
Not yet. Maybe in one or two earning calls from now I think we'll be able to shed more light on that. But yes, as JB was saying, we're going to make sure Tesla Energy is not constrained by vehicle needs. The growth rate of Tesla Energy is, on a [too soft to hear] basis, going to be far greater than the growth rate in cars.

2017 LEAPs?
 
Maybe it is just wishful thinking, but Elon mentioned little to nothing at the TSLA ER call last week about Tesla Energy and batteries. Then SCTY ER was moved out a week later than usual. I'm wondering (or hoping) if there will be some positive battery news that has been saved for tonight's er?
 
That's the lack of competitive advantage which I worry about.
There is no other entity operating in all viable markets who can touch the SCTY value proposition. Their only real PPA competition is slowly dying or has already died. Turns out there were no short cuts.

So basically you're saying they're going to be able to charge a premium because people are lazy, won't do their homework, and will want a "turnkey" solution. OK; that makes sense. I don't see why that can't be cloned by, well, anyone, including local installers. The financing is harder to clone.

I would say the truth is a lot closer to the exact opposite, within a couple years anyone will be able to negate all the up front cost components and take tax credits at POS. What they won't be able to insert into a business model is the stability of being the front-runner since the beginning. Thanks to Elon as a spiritual and financial backstop, SCTY isn't going anywhere. Could that be said about other PPA operators? Why would I choose Vivint or SUNE or a local installer over SCTY for my PPA needs? Half the boxes aren't checked with the other guy's offerings.

Standing relatively alone in the PPA marketplace for 2017-18 will be invaluable to future revenue streams.
 
SCTY ER: Like Christmas four times a year.

I hope the boys can keep this ship afloat. Since SCTY financial reporting has reached ludicrous mode there may be no where to go.

Leaving the snippiness aside, I agree with this bit
- "SCTY financial reporting has reached ludicrous mode"
and this bit
- "there may be no where to go".

Regardless of what happens in the ER, anyone having even a passing interest in SCTY should take a close look at Hancock deal and all info around it.

For the longest times, the belief has been that SCTY does make very fat profits, it just so happens the profits are stuck in very long term future cash flows. This is really the basis for a multi-billion dollar valuation.

For the first time ever Hancock deal actually exposes that the long/bull premise is fundamentally flawed. SolarCity doesn't make any profits even after accounting for all of the future contracted cashflows. The stock slide of more than 30% around the Hancock deal announcement is not fluke. It is simply more people realizing what's going on.

The bolded part, I thought would be the circumstance if ITC deal wasn't reached. It's shocking to find that SCTY is in that predicament today.

Chanos' recent comment is "The problem with SolarCity is they’re losing money on every installation". I believe he is actually correct. And I also believe he is doing a full cashflow analysis (of the contracted portions), not just upfront cashflows. Don't brush off Chanos lightly. He is very highly regarded as a financial/accounting genius. He apparently cracked Enron before it imploded. That does take a genius. After all SolarCity is primarily a financial firm with a gazillion SPEs and SPVs. It is sort of a bank, without any banking regulations, and the management going amok with whatever they want.

On the contrary I believe Chanos is getting Tesla wrong. Yes, he may have a point or two with respect to finances. But Tesla's core strength is not financing. It is the product, the technology, the leadership and such. Chanos hasn't built a reputation for himself in analyzing such traits. So I'm not sold on his thesis with respect to Tesla. But I do feel that he got SolarCity right. He will stay short until it goes to low single digits and eventually gets taken private (to save Musk from an embarrassing public bankruptcy).
 
  • Informative
Reactions: replicant
Want to add, generally SCTY short-interest goes down when stock goes down (as traders cover at lower prices). But this time around since Hancock deal came out, as stock went down, the short interest went UP. So essentially shorts are emboldened by that new piece of info.

Hancock deal was either a distressed trade because SCTY badly needed money -or- it is what the true value of these cashflows is. Either case, it doesn't bode well for SCTY.
 
I'm most interested in reestablishing customer acquisition cost trends. The financial fallout from Arizona has obscured those numbers.

As a solar construction company they have plenty of opportunity to bid jobs. If the PPA decline continues, the question is whether SCTY can morph into a different kind of company.

I don't expect much from today's ER except obfuscation.
 
For the longest times, the belief has been that SCTY does make very fat profits, it just so happens the profits are stuck in very long term future cash flows. This is really the basis for a multi-billion dollar valuation.

For the first time ever Hancock deal actually exposes that the long/bull premise is fundamentally flawed. SolarCity doesn't make any profits even after accounting for all of the future contracted cashflows. The stock slide of more than 30% around the Hancock deal announcement is not fluke. It is simply more people realizing what's going on.

The Hancock deal does shed quite a bit of light on potential profitability. The residential(70%) portion of the offering was essentially financed at $3.24/W after most everything has been sold or otherwise monetized. Installing at $2.60/W including absolutely absurd customer acquisition costs therefore becomes a fairly clear indication of today's profit off each install and what tomorrow will look like. Yes, these guys are installing in a mature California market at scale, but every other market might as well be in it's infancy. The costs to install will only remain so fat until some major markets getup to scale.

The 2016 install cost goal of $2.35/W(mixed I believe) paints a more pleasant picture when overlayed with the revenue/W they've been able to generate within this most recent offering. In basic terms, if you can maintain something like $3.25/W as the output of your model, how is that anything other than an accelerating cash machine as costs quickly plummet from $2.67 to $2/W?

That being said, I agree that this quarter will be nothing more than worsening inputs for the algos and should cause a dip. This pattern has repeated so many times now that the dip might be mostly priced in, who knows. I'll be interested to see how all the new grid/Tesla Energy products are positioned.
 
Mule, The $2Bil market cap and $5.4Bil enterprise-value is not based on future profits.

It is very much rooted in the assumption that SC is making big margins "today" AND the assumption that it has already bankrolled piles of these profits with all the installs they made so far in what used to be called Retained Value.

If word gets out adequately that they are not making profits nor they ever made them, the stock will be sub-$5 or worse, they are already insolvent.

A month or two ago, in exchanges with jhm I said, I believe SC is solvent but has liquidity issue. But now it's becoming clear that they may not be solvent at all. This is a far worse realization.
 
It'll all work itself out within this calendar year no doubt. Pretty clear to me that if you can generate $3.24/W on residential installs as the #1 player and no one is able to drive down your premiums over the medium term.....you got something pretty sweet.

As long as they maintain their model and differentiation at all cost, they'll make a killing when cost and revenue finally cross paths. Who's going to jump into this market and displace SCTY? Certainly not the no-sales SUNE model or the all-sales Vivint model.

On an install basis they should show a profit this year right? $3.24/W - X = Y provides more than enough room to work and should be pretty clear to investors.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.