So… Highland is out…

[MrT3]

I thought we had variable rate steering already in the UK? So either that means steer by wire is allowed, or they're doing something with the power assist to vary the rate? Makes me think you could do that less rotation lock to lock without steer by wire necessarily?

There is still a mechanical linkage, so if the variable element fails, or a complete electrical failure, you can still steer.

 

[spdpsba]

That's not how muscle memory works, it requires there to be a repeated action relative to part of your body, if your hand and the button are not in the same relative position there is no muscle memory.

It doesn’t have to. You just need to know where the buttons are (right and left) in relation to the wheel. Please do not make up new theories!

 

[phil4]

I suspect almost all of you will disagree with me, but in my current and past I've driven enough vehicles with different indicator arrangements, that I know muscle memory can easily fix. Motorbikes for a start, left thumb. But even a couple of cars, where you can see the steering rack, had toggle switches up on the dash, manual gearboxes too to add to the workload. After a day or so, I could easily adapt to any of them (the motorbike alone takes the most adjusting as almost upside down compared to a car). My thinking is to not be like some of the ICE Anti-EV people, who hate it based on "change" and solely the concept, but to try it and see if I can do it. I suspect I can.

 

[Roy Batty]

My parents both had BXs, god knows why they liked the air suspension inflating itself I think. It was a toggle mechanism, not something you could push in the same way as a stalk, it certainly took some getting used to.

Yes, but it's not required in the highway code to change indicator direction to indicate you are leaving a mini roundabout, you just indicate as you approach. No need to change while the wheel is rotated.

Yes, I had one myself and it sat just above where the stalk sits, the point is it stays in the same position.

 

[Pagemakers]

Anybody placed a highland PCP order at 9.5% and been offered the new rate of 9%?

 

[Roy Batty]

It doesn’t have to. You just need to know where the buttons are (right and left) in relation to the wheel. Please do not make up new theories!

I'm not, and the buttons aren't in the same relative position as your hands have moved to another position on the wheel.

 

[spdpsba]

Anybody placed a highland PCP order at 9.5% and been offered the new rate of 9%?

BoE rate may go down quickly to 5% in few months!

 

[spdpsba]

I'm not, and the buttons aren't in the same relative position as your hands have moved to another position on the wheel.

I’ve given up!

 

[Maki22]

I'm not, and the buttons aren't in the same relative position as your hands have moved to another position on the wheel.

But you know how much you have turned the wheel while driving and you can easily learn and get used to where the buttons are at any given time based on that.

0 = top: right, bottom: left
90 = right: right, left: left
180 = top: left, bottom: right
270 = right: left, left: right

It isn't rocket science,

You do not need to change the climate control mid roundabout.

Answering a call using a button on the steering wheel, or changing the volume, requires a look if your hands are out of position, this is the problem.

What if your windows start to fog? Do you try to drive with a fogged up window to the next exit on the express way where you can safely find a place to stop before trying to figure out the climate controls or do you try to figure it out while driving on the express way?
I am sure the majority will try to figure it out while driving on the express way and risk rear ending someone or leave the lane while the focus is on the climate controls.


There is no hope for you if you can't learn how the wheel feels like or know where you hands are and need to look at your hands to do something as simple as adjusting the volume or answer a call.

 

[Js1977]

I'm not, and the buttons aren't in the same relative position as your hands have moved to another position on the wheel.

Try this... get a blindfold on, get a guide dog and go out for a walk or even close your eyes and walk around the house... Obviously its very hard if you go from being able to see to not. On the other hand, if you were born blind, you dont know any better.

Also, Not everyone here has passed their driving test with the same amount of lessons. What some of us visualise is clearly not the reality for others.

Far to easy to come up with scenarios to corroborate your views

 

[Roy Batty]

What if your windows start to fog? Do you try to drive with a fogged up window to the next exit on the express way where you can safely find a place to stop before trying to figure out the climate controls or do you try to figure it out while driving on the express way?
I am sure the majority will try to figure it out while driving on the express way and risk rear ending someone or leave the lane while the focus is on the climate controls.

Eh, what on earth are you talking about?

The expressway is not a roundabout where the steering wheel is not in its normal position.

 

[Roy Batty]

Try this... get a blindfold on, get a guide dog and go out for a walk or even close your eyes and walk around the house... Obviously its very hard if you go from being able to see to not. On the other hand, if you were born blind, you dont know any better.

Also, Not everyone here has passed their driving test with the same amount of lessons. What some of us visualise is clearly not the reality for others.

Far to easy to come up with scenarios to corroborate your views

And you seem to be coming up with some strange scenarios to corroborate yours.

 

[Js1977]

And you seem to be coming up with some strange scenarios to corroborate yours.

Im sorry about that... meant to say "our views" if that helps

 

[WannabeOwner]

I do think the suggestion that people are going to need to indicate while their wheel is at 180 degrees so unlikely, roundabouts are not that tight.

I thought that when this discussion first came up, and consciously checked hand position / wheel rotation at a number of roundabouts to see how much was required.

Mini-roundabouts are the obvious one, but the one that surprised me was a normal-small size (S rather than XS and not XXXL ). My lane split to provide two just at the entrance to the roundabout. I'm in right lane, turning right. But to get onto the roundabout I have to, first, turn left a bit. and in that instance the amount of RIGHT I then needed was 180, which surprised me

Dunno about others, but for that much wheel I'm doing hand-through-handle shuffle, rather than crossed-wrists, so my hands are still at, say, 9-and-3 - so I would have to be using other-hand-thumb for indicator buttons (as well as buttons other way up).

No idea if I would cope, 'coz I ain't tried it, but I was surprised that I used 180 wheel turn in "normal driving", rather than just car parking.

How about the different countries where the indicator and wiper stalks have switched sides? How often will you end up turning on the wipers instead of indicating before you re-learn where things are?

A long time ago I had a Japanese car which had wrong side stalks), and did indeed get used to it after a bit.

Then wife got a European car and every time we swapped we would be "Wipers-on" when making a turn ...

I would not, now, consciously buy a wrong-side stalks car unless it was the only car I was going to drive.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I go clay pidgeon shooting and I guess it uses the same muscle memory type reaction as that - you have to predict where it's going to be when you pull the trigger (or press the thumb). It's pretty easy to do.. and I'm sure missing 15% of the time is fine when driving which is about as good as my shot

I will repeat, although its largely pointless in moving the debate forward, there is a world of difference between a control moving position from one car to the next, and a control always moving whilst driving and as soon as your hand position moves on the wheel you've lost your frame of reference.

But regardless, maybe we should pause the converstation as those that have concerns are just not going to believe those that say its not a problem until they experienced it for themselves.

 

[Jason71]

But you know how much you have turned the wheel while driving and you can easily learn and get used to where the buttons are at any given time based on that.

0 = top: right, bottom: left
90 = right: right, left: left
180 = top: left, bottom: right
270 = right: left, left: right

It isn't rocket science,

true but I would argue indicating should be able to be performed without trigonometry or any kind of science at the point of use.

 

[LiamPope]

The ironic thing is that in at least 90% of the times, I am the only one that indicate in roundabouts...

My exact experience of driving in Norway.

Interesting to see several Norwegian driving schools have already dropped the 3 because of the stalkless design and its potential safety issues.

Tesla's turn signals are causing havoc at Norwegian driving schools

Tesla's turn signal design, which lacks a traditional stalk on its newer vehicles, is causing havoc in Norwegian driving schools.

www.teslarati.com

As above, surprised to learn it is even taught here.

 

[FastLaneJB]

You can say that as well.

But it is the same with any new car you buy,

Go from a VW to a Hyundai and I am sure you will spend weeks trying to get used to and learn where all the buttons are.
Indicators moving from stalk to wheel is no different.

Not knowing or being very good at finding a radio station or programming the sat navigation is a little different from struggling to indicate.

 

[FastLaneJB]

I personally struggle to see the issue, to buttons are on the outside edge of the "stem" of the wheel and follow the same layout as a stalk e.g. up for right, down for left.

The problem is, like you have said in one of your other posts - people who have decided they don't like them without trying will not change their mind, and people who learn them and get on with them will have their comments mooted by aforementioned people who have not tried them and do not like the idea.

I can help but feel this will become the Tesla/Automotive equivalent of Apple Vs Android.

Well no that was long since decided. The iPhone is better. You could disagree with me but you'd be wrong

 

[Oxid8ter]

Well no that was long since decided. The iPhone is better. You could disagree with me but you'd be wrong

I made the jump from Apple to Android after having 'every' (every number) iPhone up to the 13 Pro Max... and I have been pleasantly surprised with my Pixel Pro tbh, but there are definitely certain areas that work better on one vs the other.

Wallet is better on Android (as you can scan all of your reward cards in even if the retailer doesnt offer "Add to Wallet")
Airplay > Android Screen Mirroring (which I still cant fathom)

Just a couple of examples.... but we digress.