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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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How? Is there any evidence at all that 'negotiation' can work in this case?
The fallacy in all the traditional thinkers is that they think possible to negotiate with people who think and believe they are acting with Divine authority. One cannot negotiate with God!
The only easy way to read current Kremlin thinking is the read Alexandr Dugin, several of whose books are here:

Reading these, mandatory rating at Russian military schools, will explain how 'negotiation' works in present Russian governmental environment.

Summary: don't even Think that they will stop before they have all Russia:
That means everything that ever was part of the Russian Empire.

Negotiate away, I'm sure they'll settle for Sonoma County California, Alaska, bits of the rest of NorthWest North America, plus obvious Russia like Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Georgia, Hungary, and so on. Ukraine is strictly an internal conflict, after all, even though some of you unenlightened people don't know it.

Read Dugin, then you'll understand their thought processes.

End: There is no choice! Fight until they're defeated. Hope that they are sane enough to not totally destroy their own interests. Nobody knows if sanity can prevail, but there si no prospect for negotiation and more than there was with Hitler. This time there are quite a few 'true believers' who will continue after Putin would be deposed. I really, really hope I'm wrong...but, living among 'true believers' for long parts of my life convinces me otherwise.
I think there should be a time where both sides need to hear what each other has to say about a potential cease fire. Russia is not negotiating from a position of strength, however Ukrainians must also take a more realistic approach. The problem since the start of this war was both sides completely misjudged each other. Ukrainians didn't want to believe Putin would invade despite them annexing and pestering Ukraine for over half a decade. Putin didn't think the West would give them massive support and a president not surrendering. Everyone kind of F-ed up.

So the problem I see is this. Everyone is STILL trying to downplay what Putin is willing to do next when in fact he has shown to be this idiotic crazy person who triple downs over and over again. He goes as far as killing any oligarchs who opposes his view point and the mistake we shouldn't make again is to downplay where he is willing to go next despite how strategically stupid it is. Strategic stupidity is not of Putin's concern and we have seen for the last 8 months pretty clearly.

This is why the possibility of nukes and WW3 became higher as Ukrainians are winning. Those who thinks "oh yeah Russia will eventually give up and go home" is pretty much as naive as "oh yeah Russia will never invade us, we are neighbors and we like each other" 8 months ago.

Musk pretty much sees the eventual outcome but provide support for Ukrainians to give them as much negotiating power as possible. Now Ukrainians feel like they can completely wipe the floor with Russia through their victories which is most likely short sighted. It's a hopeful outcome but the least likely. I understand why Ukrainians feel this way and if I were their leader, I would to. WW3 is really not what Ukrainians are afraid of at all. They have more to gain from WW3 than what non-participating nations have to lose.
 
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What's funny is (or should I say Ironic), Elon thinks this is what he's proposing to Ukraine, but he simply doesn't seem to understand Russia is the Mordor, there is no "in between" with them, they'll just keep on coming.
Oh god so what, Russians are orcs? Everyone is human and humanity is more capable of good than bad. People are brainwashed to see the opposition as subhuman. That's how you can point a gun at your fellow neighbor and shoot. It's military 101, making sure the person you want to kill doesn't deserve to live. It's the only way to get good people to pull the trigger.

Elon fights for humanity and he takes only the side where the most lives can be saved vs killed.
 
I think there should be a time where both sides need to hear what each other has to say about a potential cease fire. Russia is not negotiating from a position of strength, however Ukrainians must also take a more realistic approach. The problem since the start of this war was both sides completely misjudged each other. Ukrainians didn't want to believe Putin would invade despite them annexing and pestering Ukraine for over half a decade. Putin didn't think the West would give them massive support and a president not surrendering. Everyone kind of F-ed up.

So the problem I see is this. Everyone is STILL trying to downplay what Putin is willing to do next when in fact he has shown to be this idiotic crazy person who triple downs over and over again. He goes as far as killing any oligarchs who opposes his view point and the mistake we shouldn't make again is to downplay where he is willing to go next despite how strategically stupid it is. Strategic stupidity is not of Putin's concern and we have seen for the last 8 months pretty clearly.

This is why the possibility of nukes and WW3 became higher as Ukrainians are winning. Those who thinks "oh yeah Russia will eventually give up and go home" is pretty much as naive as "oh yeah Russia will never invade us, we are neighbors and we like each other" 8 months ago.

Musk pretty much sees the eventual outcome but provide support for Ukrainians to give them as much negotiating power as possible. Now Ukrainians feel like they can completely wipe the floor with Russia through their victories which is most likely short sighted. It's a hopeful outcome but the least likely. I understand why Ukrainians feel this way and if I were their leader, I would to. WW3 is really not what Ukrainians are afraid of at all. They have more to gain from WW3 than what non-participating nations have to lose.

I was with you until the end- What exactly do the Ukrainians have to gain from WW3? That's clearly a lose-lose scenario for every person and nation on the planet.
 
Rapid retreat by Russia in Kherson towards their defensive lines at Nova Kharkova dam


And retreating across any of the three bridges (Kherson/Antonov road bridge; Kherson rail bridge; Nova Khakova dam bypass lock bridge) is going to be a bit awkward with increasing amounts of artillery fire


About 30 of the 44 Russian tank losses yesterday were in Kherson.

1664899107500.png


Hopefully Musk learns from this. The first principle is to engage brain before opening mouth.


People begin to accept the evidence over Nordstream, as facts begin to come out


Nice to know the NATO military doctrine that has been taught to the Ukraine since 2014 actually works :)

 
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I think that complaints about Elon do not belong here
Is there a reason this message board can't function like every other message board in the universe pre-2017?

Wouldn't it have been easier if someone simply posted this tweet as a topic in a forum? Because that's what it is, a topic.....that a lot of people don't wanna talk about.

Kids these days insist on one massive chaotic stream of consciousness rather than separate conversations. It's ridiculous.
 
I was with you until the end- What exactly do the Ukrainians have to gain from WW3? That's clearly a lose-lose scenario for every person and nation on the planet.
Uhh nato troops on the ground using weapons that are not 20 years old? Completely dominate the skies. War can be over in a few hours or days, depending who and if nukes are launched.
 
Appeasing Putin does not save lives. Should be obvious.
Chucking Putler out a window is the only way to end this and save lives. Yeah the next dictator could be worse but there's a chance they're not a psychotic murderer.
 
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That’s your opinion which is fair…. For me, I feel dirty every time I get in this car. Is GM Clean…. Hardly. But Musk, who has proven himself a sick little man on so many fronts has way to much influence. Another cultish figure we don’t need in our world. Mary B at least has the smarts to keep her worst thoughts to herself. You know, control beyond toddler level. A reasonable filter imposed on ones self as to not use your power to stir the pot. An adult. I respect that. The MY won’t be the best EV on the market in very short order…. I’ll be selling mine soon. Like I said, that’s me… Others are untitled to their own machinations on the topic. Like I said, really too bad this company has to be dragged down by Musk. They should fire him.

I’m gonna leave it there…. Enjoy!
While I share your opinion of Musk's behavior in this case (and probably others), remember he's just ONE employee in a very large company, granted CEO and granted spokesperson in many ways, but don't assume that all the Tesla employees (including the ones who had a more direct hand in building your car) probably have different opinions, and flaws, and virtues.

+1 to what was said above about MB at GM, and have you watched "Who Killed the Electric Car?"
 
Like I said Fan Boy… I’ve said my piece. It’s a personal judgement and a personal choice. Go on about being a member of the cult that worships a man that behaves as a toddler. It’s popular in the USA these days. Turning off notifications for this post so have at me, I won’t know the difference.

Your arguments are not convincing when you result to personal attacks on other members.
 
Thought possibly a wild card, good to hear Italy's support appears to hold.

...Giorgia Meloni, set to become Italy's next prime minister, promised "her full support" for Ukraine on Tuesday in a phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, her Brothers of Italy party said...

...Meloni has been one of the few Italian political leaders to wholeheartedly endorse outgoing Prime Minister Mario Draghi's decision to ship weapons to Ukraine, even though she was in opposition to his government.
By contrast, Meloni's two political allies, the League and Forza Italia, which were both in Draghi's coalition, have been much more ambivalent, reflecting their historically close ties with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Italy's Meloni speaks to Zelenskiy, offers full support for Ukraine
 
Oh god so what, Russians are orcs? Everyone is human and humanity is more capable of good than bad. People are brainwashed to see the opposition as subhuman. That's how you can point a gun at your fellow neighbor and shoot. It's military 101, making sure the person you want to kill doesn't deserve to live. It's the only way to get good people to pull the trigger.

Russia's leadership's end goal is what matters, and it is already in motion:

 
Thought possibly a wild card, good to hear Italy's support appears to hold.

...Giorgia Meloni, set to become Italy's next prime minister, promised "her full support" for Ukraine on Tuesday in a phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, her Brothers of Italy party said...

...Meloni has been one of the few Italian political leaders to wholeheartedly endorse outgoing Prime Minister Mario Draghi's decision to ship weapons to Ukraine, even though she was in opposition to his government.
By contrast, Meloni's two political allies, the League and Forza Italia, which were both in Draghi's coalition, have been much more ambivalent, reflecting their historically close ties with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Italy's Meloni speaks to Zelenskiy, offers full support for Ukraine
But, I thought she was a dAnGeR tO dEmOcRaCy.
 
But, I thought she was a dAnGeR tO dEmOcRaCy.
Talk is easy.

But iIt is not yet clear what she is actually going to do.

That is why Russia switched off the Gazprom gas to Italy a few days ago, to try to scare her into submission - see post #309 :


She is talking of allying with Hungary (i.e. Putin's pwn) in voting down the EU energy strategy .... which is designed to get Europe through the winter and not give in to Russian blackmail. Of course Orban in Hungary is trying to nix that.

We shall see what actually happens.
 
The fact that the CEO of the company we have invested our money in is seemingly supporting Russia’s endeavors in Ukraine (he hasn’t rectified his tweets yet, or given detailed explanations, so it is still endorsing in my book) is hugely material to the company’s perception and future outlook.

Musk tweeted:

SpaceX’s out of pocket cost to enable and support Starlink in Ukraine is ~$80M so far.
Our support for Russia is $0. Obviously, we are pro Ukraine.

Trying to retake Crimea will cause massive death, probably fail and risk nuclear war. This would be terrible for Ukraine and Earth.



I don't agree with him on this but he did explain his position and clarify his support for Ukraine (even if his recent tweets end up helping Russia). IMO the whole let's appease Russia because it's run by a madman with nukes idea is what got us into this mess and it won't get us out.
 
Talk is easy.

But iIt is not yet clear what she is actually going to do.

That is why Russia switched off the Gazprom gas to Italy a few days ago, to try to scare her into submission - see post #309 :


She is talking of allying with Hungary (i.e. Putin's pwn) in voting down the EU energy strategy .... which is designed to get Europe through the winter and not give in to Russian blackmail. Of course Orban in Hungary is trying to nix that.

We shall see what actually happens.

Your constructive answer is appreciated. Thanks for the insight.
 
Musk tweeted:

SpaceX’s out of pocket cost to enable and support Starlink in Ukraine is ~$80M so far.
Our support for Russia is $0. Obviously, we are pro Ukraine.

Trying to retake Crimea will cause massive death, probably fail and risk nuclear war. This would be terrible for Ukraine and Earth.



I don't agree with him on this but he did explain his position and clarify his support for Ukraine (even if his recent tweets end up helping Russia). IMO the whole let's appease Russia because it's run by a madman with nukes idea is what got us into this mess and it won't get us out.

Who pulled sanctions on NS2 as bait, again? 🧐