Reduced price Autopilot & FSD for existing owners announced March 1st

[sreams]

We should not confuse logical reasoning and inference with something that has never been stated.

Heck Tesla already stated that FSD would cost more if you add it later, and now it costs less. And it remains non-functional. But we're happy to assume that because FSD won't work with HW3 that we'll get HW3 included for the lower price too? And installation? Even when that has not been stated anywhere?

I think we are talking past each other.

I am addressing and disagreeing with people who believe it would be a good idea for Tesla to offer FSD for free to every person who bought EAP in the past. Tesla has stated that FSD is only possible with HW3. So, by their own statement, they would need to include HW3 and installation in order to follow through with this suggestion. And for a massive number of people.

That's why I disagree that free FSD for all who have EAP is a good solution to the "fairness" issue. Service Centers would be saturated with cars receiving their free hardware upgrades, and it would be very costly. It would likely be hurtful to Tesla's survival.

 

[apsen]

Seems like all the previous EAP owners (lots of them!) should be offered FSD at cost (<$1K IMO, or free if you already have HW3.0). No money lost (or gained) on the back of early supporters

Non EAP or FSD buyers should be offered at half price (already done)

Previous EAP and FSD buyers (fringe) offered free supercharging for 24 months? (minimal cost and few of them)

If you go for the first two then the third one is still at disadvantage since most people do not use supercharging a lot. For me just the interest on the difference would pay for my supercharger use.

 

[Knightshade]

I think we are talking past each other.

I am addressing and disagreeing with people who believe it would be a good idea for Tesla to offer FSD for free to every person who bought EAP in the past. Tesla has stated that FSD is only possible with HW3. So, by their own statement, they would need to include HW3 and installation in order to follow through with this suggestion. And for a massive number of people.

That's why I disagree that free FSD for all who have EAP is a good solution to the "fairness" issue. Service Centers would be saturated with cars receiving their free hardware upgrades, and it would be very costly. It would likely be hurtful to Tesla's survival.

The pricing that would have made actual sense:


Existing EAP owners get to upgrade for 3k. Offering the pre-purchase price might have made existing FSD buyers slightly annoyed, but there's only so much sympathy one could have for being upset someone else gets the SAME price as you. Damage is pretty insignificant here. FSD comes with HW3 upgrade of course

New car buyers can buy AP (no e) for 3k, and FSD (new feature set) for 5k. Same 8 total price as before just features shifted around. Again FSD comes with HW3 upgrade if needed.

And initially it looked like they were doing this...and nobody really had much cause to be upset at any of it.




Then bizarrely they decided to make it only 5k, total, not 8k, if you were an existing owner who had bought NO software features previously....thus pissing off most people who had bought any, for no apparent reason.

THEN they made it worse by saying "Ah, well, how about we only charge the people who previously bought EAP a mere 2k to add FSD...."

Which still means previous EAP buyers pay 2k more than people who bought neither AND it means people who previously bought FSD (and still have gotten no delivery for it) paid the most and get nothing back other than the chance to maybe alpha test software in exchange for signing an NDA and giving feedback on it.

 

[UZJedi]

Tesla has taught us from this situation that it is best to wait it out. Granted, when they start Model Y production there probably won't be this bad of a pricing reduction as I would surmise that they would be in better financial health by then, but still, it's not good when you take a very loyal fan/customer base and screw them over.

It does a company no good when people only fawn over your used cards, especially if they don't buy the used car from the company's own inventory.

They also won't have the EV tax credit phase out to contend with, which is another driver of their decisions to reduce prices.

 

[sreams]

The pricing that would have made actual sense:


Existing EAP owners get to upgrade for 3k. Offering the pre-purchase price might have made existing FSD buyers slightly annoyed, but there's only so much sympathy one could have for being upset someone else gets the SAME price as you. Damage is pretty insignificant here. FSD comes with HW3 upgrade of course

New car buyers can buy AP (no e) for 3k, and FSD (new feature set) for 5k. Same 8 total price as before just features shifted around. Again FSD comes with HW3 upgrade if needed.

And initially it looked like they were doing this...and nobody really had much cause to be upset at any of it.




Then bizarrely they decided to make it only 5k, total, not 8k, if you were an existing owner who had bought NO software features previously....thus pissing off most people who had bought any, for no apparent reason.

THEN they made it worse by saying "Ah, well, how about we only charge the people who previously bought EAP a mere 2k to add FSD...."

Which still means previous EAP buyers pay 2k more than people who bought neither AND it means people who previously bought FSD (and still have gotten no delivery for it) paid the most and get nothing back other than the chance to maybe alpha test software in exchange for signing an NDA and giving feedback on it.

Agreed! That's why I'd rather see people demanding that Tesla bump the price back up for people who bought neither and do more of what you suggest, rather than demand FSD for free for EAP owners and refunds for FSD owners.

And that's coming from someone who purchased neither and who benefits from the new prices.

 

[burnside]

Fear not, I got your back my friend!

View attachment 383238

From what I'm seeing today on Twitter (specifically Trevor), you may need to update that chart soon...

 

[chronopc]

From what I'm seeing today on Twitter (specifically Trevor), you may need to update that chart soon...

View attachment 383258

I hope this is true.

 

[burnside]

I hope this is true.

This can of course change, but word right now is that no free FSD for 2018 buyers. 2019 buyers may still get that nice discount.

 

[mdustinsy]

This can of course change, but word right now is that no free FSD for 2018 buyers. 2019 buyers may still get that nice discount.

again, it is clear that FSD will not be offered for free for previous owners who has already purchased EAP or FSD. It is a desire by most to receive considering the issue where non adopters are able to purchase AP+FSD for such a lower price compared to what the "early adopters" have already paid for. this is exasperated by Tesla's insinuation that these features were going to be priced higher after delivery, which led to the pressure of purchasing ahead of this announcement.

also another misleading sales tactic is the way HW3 is being billed as if it is a unique feature to those paying up another $2K for FSD. It is not; it is standard to all FSD purchasers regardless of how much you have paid for it. again, in the current status quo, the issue is that Tesla has created an unequal pricing market for certain owners given what they have already purchased.

 

[insaneoctane]

I've been seeing the same thing (also on Twitter). It sounds like they're honing in on a "fix" to the mutiny. Probably only to create a new sub-group of mutiny! Anyway, giving folks AP & FSD for $5K wasn't making sense. Nor was giving any EAP owners FSD for free. Sounds like you can probably add AP & FSD for $7K, or EAP owners can add FSD for $2K. Previous FSD owners will get $1K refund. Probably the most equitable solution that doesn't cost Tesla TOO much, but they would have to retract/adjust their blog if they do this....

 

[burnside]

I've been seeing the same thing (also on Twitter). It sounds like they're honing in on a "fix" to the mutiny. Probably only to create a new sub-group of mutiny! Anyway, giving folks AP & FSD for $5K wasn't making sense. Nor was giving any EAP owners FSD for free. Sounds like you can probably add AP & FSD for $7K, or EAP owners can add FSD for $2K. Previous FSD owners will get $1K refund. Probably the most equitable solution that doesn't cost Tesla TOO much, but they would have to retract/adjust their blog if they do this....

That's how I'm understanding it as well and I am 100% OK with it.

 

[mdustinsy]

I've been seeing the same thing (also on Twitter). It sounds like they're honing in on a "fix" to the mutiny. Probably only to create a new sub-group of mutiny! Anyway, giving folks AP & FSD for $5K wasn't making sense. Nor was giving any EAP owners FSD for free. Sounds like you can probably add AP & FSD for $7K, or EAP owners can add FSD for $2K. Previous FSD owners will get $1K refund. Probably the most equitable solution that doesn't cost Tesla TOO much, but they would have to retract/adjust their blog if they do this....

Agreed, which is inline to @sreams point. The only challenge with this is assessing the non adapter's pricing appetite. Would these folks now be willing to purchase these feature for $7K? Or did they already considered these features salable at $5K?

 

[EVnut]

Excpet it has been stated. By Elon Musk. Repeatedly.

And this has been pointed out repeatedly too.

It has certainly been inferred repeatedly... assuming that's what you mean by "pointed out." But I have yet to see one clear (not inferred) mention from Musk or Tesla that the "after car" purchase of FSD today for $2000 will include HW3 and installation. If you could point me to where that has been stated by Musk or Tesla even once, I'd be grateful. I'm not asking because I'm lazy. I'm asking because I've searched everywhere and can't turn it up myself.

 

[sreams]

It has certainly been inferred repeatedly... assuming that's what you mean by "pointed out." But I have yet to see one clear (not inferred) mention from Musk or Tesla that the "after car" purchase of FSD today for $2000 will include HW3 and installation. If you could point me to where that has been stated by Musk or Tesla even once, I'd be grateful. I'm not asking because I'm lazy. I'm asking because I've searched everywhere and can't turn it up myself.

The website currently says I can add AP to my car for $4K, and I can add FSD for $7K... for a total of $11K.

So if spend the $11K, are you suggesting that Tesla might tell me I now own the FSD package... but that, oops, it won't actually work on my hardware? That would seem extremely shady to me. Every indication is that paying for FSD includes the ability to actually use it.

 

[EVnut]

I think we are talking past each other.

I am addressing and disagreeing with people who believe it would be a good idea for Tesla to offer FSD for free to every person who bought EAP in the past. Tesla has stated that FSD is only possible with HW3. So, by their own statement, they would need to include HW3 and installation in order to follow through with this suggestion. And for a massive number of people.

That's why I disagree that free FSD for all who have EAP is a good solution to the "fairness" issue. Service Centers would be saturated with cars receiving their free hardware upgrades, and it would be very costly. It would likely be hurtful to Tesla's survival.

Right. I'm not talking about who should pay what, or get this or that for free. I know it is *tough* to keep all the sub-threads straight here... but I stipulated that very thing in my initial post. I am ONLY asking for clarity on two things. One of them is... if you didn't originally purchase FSD, and you buy it (or get it for free, I don't care how it is procured) now months later... does HW3 and installation come along with it?

You say yes. But that's based on inference and logic... but sadly, not on any clear statement from EM or Tesla. I agree with and understand the assumption. But I can't take an assumption to the bank.

This is probably all for naught anyway. We have to see where everything settles, and HOPE that Tesla comes out with a clear statement on who gets what, for what price and WHAT IS INCLUDED in that price.

 

[insaneoctane]

Maybe folks are suspicious of Tesla, but when did people start to wonder if FSD would somehow NOT include HW3.0????

 

[commasign]

It has certainly been inferred repeatedly... assuming that's what you mean by "pointed out." But I have yet to see one clear (not inferred) mention from Musk or Tesla that the "after car" purchase of FSD today for $2000 will include HW3 and installation. If you could point me to where that has been stated by Musk or Tesla even once, I'd be grateful. I'm not asking because I'm lazy. I'm asking because I've searched everywhere and can't turn it up myself.

On twitter recently:

Elon Musk on Twitter

And also on the Q3 conference call:

“[It’s] very important to emphasize that the only thing that needs to change between a car that’s produced today and a car that’s going to be produced in the second quarter of next year is probably the autopilot computer. This is a simply change that takes about half an hour to upgrade the computer. Anyone will be able to upgrade their car to Full Self-Driving capability with a simple service visit. Basically anything made in the last two years will be upgradable to Full Self-Driving. So its better important to emphasize that there’s no need to wait until that comes out because its just a very simple plug and play change to get to Full Self-Driving. Anyone who has made for Full Self-Driving option will get it done for free. It really ends up being a discount on future capability.”

Tesla's HW3 upgrade next year will usher in Full Self-Driving, improved Neural Net computing abilities

 

[Knightshade]

It has certainly been inferred repeatedly... assuming that's what you mean by "pointed out." But I have yet to see one clear (not inferred) mention from Musk or Tesla that the "after car" purchase of FSD today for $2000 will include HW3 and installation. If you could point me to where that has been stated by Musk or Tesla even once, I'd be grateful. I'm not asking because I'm lazy. I'm asking because I've searched everywhere and can't turn it up myself.

no, it's been explicitly stated, by Elon Musk, that if you buy FSD you get HW3 upgrade included. Long term.


In reply to someone asking about the price changes not being equal for everyone on FSD-

It’s not exactly symmetric, but it will come with HW3 upgrade long-term

(bold added)


Plus, as pointed out, doing otherwise is literally impossible since FSD requires HW3.

They can't sell you something and then tell you you don't get it unless you buy other things they never mentioned in the original sale.

 

[EVnut]

are you suggesting that Tesla might tell me I now own the FSD package... but that, oops, it won't actually work on my hardware? That would seem extremely shady to me. Every indication is that paying for FSD includes the ability to actually use it.

Yup, we are probably posting out of order... by the time I complete a post, there's a whole new page to contend with! Help!

I'm truly not suggesting anything. I am, and have only ever asked where Tesla has clearly stated that the purchase of FSD today after car purchase will include HW3 and installation. (well, I asked the question IF, and it has morphed into where it's been said, since so many have come back to tell me of course it has been said... but with nary a single quote.)

Yes, I understand the assumption. No, I've never seen it stated.

What I *will* suggest is that "every indication" previously from Tesla was that FSD after purchase would be more expensive. And before the product has hit the market, it is now less expensive. Some folks are holding Tesla's feet to the fire for that huge indication that was *explicitly stated*. And now that Tesla is NOT stating what comes with an after-sales FSD purchase today, there is much, much less to hold Tesla to in the future. But all this muddies the water....

All I want to see is a clear statement from Tesla that says FSD purchased today after initial sale *will include HW3 and installation*.

 

[EVnut]

They can't sell you something and then tell you you don't get it unless you buy other things they never mentioned in the original sale.

They also "can't sell you" FSD with the promise that this will be lower than if you hold off and purchase it later... and subsequently drop the price later. And yet here we are.

I do appreciate the effort. I totally get the assumptions.