Politics proposal

[bonnie]

I’m not feeling heated. I’m feeling amused. :wink:


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But. I’m the one who got dragged into this. Am I expected to just sit down and watch from the side line?

It's just a forum. If you don't reply, threads get buried and forgotten.

 

[tigerade]

Very interesting- I can't wait to look at these two... I wonder what that says about people like me who grew up under a "right" roof, then morphed to almost a "D" (in college), then started working and being taxed and became an "R" again... then became heavily involved working on some campaigns and realized they're all crooks, and turned into more of an "L".... and finally ended up somewhere closer to a minarchist/voluntarist.... which believes, well nevermind- I don't want to offend anybody.

If you want to go further into the rabbit hole, there is a great book out there called The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris. In that book, Harris discusses the lack of evidence and possible lack of existence of free will.

Sam Harris - The Illusion of Free Will - YouTube

Basically, everything we may think we want to do may actually just be neurological impulses that we have no control over. Kind of a scary if you think about it, which is why I choose (or I think I choose) not to worry about it.

But, I generally agree that we have less control over our thoughts and feelings then we think we do. We also have little control over our place of birth, upbringing and culture that we are assimilated into. I am not in anyway arguing that people's minds cannot be changed, I am just saying that changing people's minds is a lot harder than you may think.

And I wholeheartedly agree with you about moving away from opinion-based to scientifically measured and driven..... not enough of that today. Good luck finding studies that are impartial though... that's the problem.

I concur with your concurrence. The first step is to firmly establish what our goals really are. Do we want less suffering in the world? More prosperity? Better living conditions, civil rights, and economic wealth for living persons? Do we want to grow our economy and keep the environment and biosphere stable? Do we want more fairness and justice, less crime and oppression? Do we want better education and understand, and less hatred and ignorance? My answer is all of those questions is yes. If we can all agree on the basic principles of what we want to accomplish, then the next step is really just figuring out the best way to do it. And again I am not saying that all of those conclusions can be reached scientifically. I am just saying that the best bet is to apply scientific principles to find the best solution whether applicable. But I know that is difficult, such as with economics which does not offer much predictability.

That is pretty much all I have to say on politics. I want a world with less suffering, more happiness, less ignorance, more education, less fear, more exploration. And so on. I vote in accordance to this belief.

 

[brianman]

Here we are, over 50 posts later ... and accusations are being made and we're off topic. And this was just a thread about IF we could have a place for political discussions. It wasn't meant to BE a thread for contentious discussions.

Nice.

I guess I'll just start flagging every political post as per Nigel's comment about this not being the forum for political discourse. I tried, but apparently TMC isn't ready to consider doing anything else right now.

 

[bonnie]

You're totally missing the point, brianman. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or not.

There has been plenty of political discourse. I gave you an example. The problem is it is very VERY hard for people to talk about the issues without it devolving into name calling and attacks. I have also given you examples for that.

When it drifts from talking about the issue, it becomes a lot of work for the moderators. I don't know how to make it clearer than that. The forum membership (like the rest of the human race) appears unable to sit and discuss the issues reasonably without taking potshots.

And none of the moderators are willing to volunteer to moderate a political discussion as a result. We simply do not want the extra workload. Please don't make it into something else. It is not that we don't enjoy a good political discussion. It is not because we are trying to turn this into a police state. We. Simply. Don't. Want. The. Extra. Workload.

And the fact that this thread got off track so rapidly is good evidence of what I'm talking about. You're a smart guy. So I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse.

 

[brianman]

And the fact that this thread got off track so rapidly is good evidence of what I'm talking about. You're a smart guy. So I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse.

Way to be insulting while trying to sound otherwise.

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You're totally missing the point, brianman. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or not.

There has been plenty of political discourse. I gave you an example. The problem is it is very VERY hard for people to talk about the issues without it devolving into name calling and attacks. I have also given you examples for that.

When it drifts from talking about the issue, it becomes a lot of work for the moderators. I don't know how to make it clearer than that. The forum membership (like the rest of the human race) appears unable to sit and discuss the issues reasonably without taking potshots.

And I believe you're missing the point. You seem to have the impression that the existing moderators are the only viable candidates for people to reign in a political sub-forum. I think that's an overly narrow perspective. I've hinted at this at least three times.

 

[ggies07]

Question - Here is a thread about SpaceX -

SpaceX financing article @ Bloomberg

But in the article for which the thread is about, it talks about Elon giving to politicians:

SpaceX hired lobbyists and flew a key lawmaker to its offices. Musk gave about $12,000 in campaign contributions.

and

In 2012, before the biennial legislative session, Musk and a trust in his name donated $1,000 to Representative Jim Pitts, a Republican who is chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, $1,000 to Oliveira and $3,000 to Senator Eddie Lucio Jr., a Brownsville Democrat.

I didn't know Elon gave to politicians to help out his cause, so could I post something about how that cross references to how the oil industry works with Congress? I mean that would surely lead to political talk, but I think would be ok to have a discussion about it. Would my post be taken to the quarantined thread?

 

[bonnie]

And I believe you're missing the point. You seem to have the impression that the existing moderators are the only viable candidates for people to reign in a political sub-forum. I think that's an overly narrow perspective. I've hinted at this at least three times.

If you can point out a suitable candidate (usually we look for someone who has been trying to balance conversations, tone down things that are escalating, & make sure folks are getting heard), please submit the ideas to doug.

We're well aware that as more Model S are sold, Model X enters production, and then Gen III launches, we'll need more moderators. (I used to be able to read every post. "Used to". Hahaha. Wow. Those were the days.)

 

[dsm363]

Question - Here is a thread about SpaceX -

SpaceX financing article @ Bloomberg

But in the article for which the thread is about, it talks about Elon giving to politians:



and



I didn't know Elon gave to politicians to help out his cause, so could I post something about how that cross references to how the oil industry works with Congress? I mean that would surely lead to political talk, but I think would be ok to have a discussion about it. Would my post be taken to the quarantined thread?

I don't see how that would be a problem. There is a natural intersection with EVs and politics/oil/...etc. The things that get punted are normally centered around more hot button topics or if people get into a republicans vs democrats type squabble. If people can stick to the issues without getting their feelings bent out of shape things normally move along quite well.

 

[Doug_G]

History shows what happens when dialog is restricted...

There are plenty of other places you can go to espouse your political views.

None of the moderators have a problem with discussing political issues relating to EVs. Unfortunately, a good number of participants don't seem to have the ability to engage in a mature discussion. The moderators are already dealing with too much of this stuff as it is.

I guess I'll just start flagging every political post as per Nigel's comment about this not being the forum for political discourse.

Please don't. All that will achieve is making more work for the moderators, following up on needless post reports.

In case you haven't noticed, we do tolerate some political commentary; the problem is that it frequently descends very quickly into name calling. When it crosses that threshold we slam the door. Also we do try to keep the discussion focused on Tesla. That's what this forum is about.

And I believe you're missing the point. You seem to have the impression that the existing moderators are the only viable candidates for people to reign in a political sub-forum. I think that's an overly narrow perspective. I've hinted at this at least three times.

I don't think the hints were missed.

 

[Al Sherman]

Not to beat the heck out of what appears to be a dead horse. I volunteer to moderate the "politics" sub forum. I'm not perfect but believe I could be objective since I don't like ANY politicians from any political bent. :smile:

My only idea would be a set of very clear rules about off topic, name calling, etc... Basically anything but civil discussion would go away. We could have a pop up window that a poster couldn't disable every time someone tries to post in that subforum. Basically warning them that the rules are very strict and will be followed exactly including any distracting whining about being banished.

Or not. :wink: