Politics proposal

[tigerade]

We may have far less control of our own thoughts and choices in politics then we think we do:

Jonathan Haidt: The moral roots of liberals and conservatives - YouTube

The Surprising Brain Differences Between Democrats and Republicans | Mother Jones

There seems to be mounting evidence of biological differences between conservatives and liberals. Politics is definitely opinion-based, but I don't think we actually have much control over our opinions. The study in that TED talk that talks about different moral values per country seems pretty compelling to me.

Anyway, I am kind of disinterested in politics. I think evidence-based reasoning has trumped both liberal and conservative ideologies. While it's not possible to make everything into a science, I think we should take a science-like approach to everything from economics, environmental protection, fiscal management, social welfare, infrastructure management, etc. We are really, really deep into the woods of this bizarro land where evidence doesn't matter. That is something I seek to change.

 

[NigelM]

I find it interesting that a person can be mocked openly for a slip in their use of grammar, but the moment someone mentions the media, etc., they're sent to Siberia.

The Grammar Misteaks thread is longer than the Political Quarantine thread; we could discuss why but the point is that mods do try to clear that up also.

Sorry, but the fact is that Tesla and EVs are VERY political, especially in the U.S., and there needs to be some way to discuss this fact without getting shut down at every turn.

Search the Political Quarantine thread and see how many times 'Tesla' or 'electric vehicles' are mentioned. The answer is once and once. Mods are far from perfect but we're just doing our best to clean out the political stuff that gets folks riled up; reasonable discussion related to Tesla and EVs gets left in place.

 

[bonnie]

Here's an example of a thread discussing the impact of political maneuvering Government Shutdown/Debt Limit - Issues and Timelines for Investors that was left in place (though a large number of posts had to go to the quarantine thread, because people just couldn't discuss the issue and had to get into ideology and personal attacks).

The point being, yes, political discussions DO happen on TMC. But it's rare that this lot can manage to keep it all from devolving into one big angry mob. And when we have one happening, all the mods are on alert, doing their best to keep the forum from imploding.

 

[brianman]

The point being, yes, political discussions DO happen on TMC. But it's rare that this lot can manage to keep it all from devolving into one big angry mob. And when we have one happening, all the mods are on alert, doing their best to keep the forum from imploding.

I think there's a bit of a "pent up" problem here. By banishing useful discussion (and there is some) to the Quarantine thread, it keeps productive discussion from ever developing in established places. So it pops up everywhere.

(Sorry to pick on him but...) As an example, I for one am glad we have the Climate thread so that we have somewhere to move 90% of Swedish's posts to. (And yes, 90% is an exaggeration but man I get tired of seeing the topic EVERYWHERE and then seeing banishments-due-to-politics happening within 5 posts regularly.) I'm also glad we have the Unions thread for similar reasons.

In contrast, I dislike the "Short Term investments" thread because it's about as black-hole-ish as the politics Quarantine thread. It's kind of like having a Roadster thread instead of Roadster sub-forums.

To have productive discussions, an appropriately sized and shaped structure is needed. If you have the wrong size and shape, then bad things happen. If you try to close down discussion entirely then worse things happen, as it leads to the pent-up thoughts popping up everywhere else -- which leads to moderator hell of throwing everything into Quarantine.

I guess in short I'm saying you're being both overly pessimistic (don't you generally see people as being relatived well-behaved otherwise?) and (potentially) mixing up cause and effect somewhat.


If you're worried about the police effort being too complicated, try opening up a sub-forum for Politics and do ZERO moderation. Flag it with "demilitarized zone" tagging or whatever if you like. I'm willing to bet there's some self-policing re: the personal attacks in less than a month. Why a whole month? Because this quarantine pent-up thing has been building a long time.

Or, as I hinted, pick 10 people that regularly attempt to be active in Politics-y discussion in a positive way and deputize the whole group as moderators of that sub-forum. Don't give them superpowers if you like, just deputize them to manage the block-post and move-post-to-bad-behavior-thread powers for that sub-forum.

Or, heck, have a poll to select trial-period moderators for that sub-forum. I could probably come up with 5 candidates for the poll if you'd like.

 

[dsm363]

As Bonnie pointed out there are plenty of other forums for politics. If you want to see what zero moderation looks like check out the comments on articles from politico, Fox News, CNN....etc and the absolute vile things people say.

 

[brianman]

As Bonnie pointed out there are plenty of other forums for politics. If you want to see what zero moderation looks like check out the comments on articles from politico, Fox News, CNN....etc and the absolute vile things people say.

Those forums don't have TMC members. Again, pessimism IMO.

"Nobody made a compelling electric car for 100 years. Nobody ever will."

"Past performance is not..."

I could go on but I guess we just disagree on how TMC members would behave given some room.



Edit:

I can't help but notice that the moderators are championing the police state so strongly in the thread about opening up political discussion. Makes me think of some writings in the late 1800s.

"Clearly they can't be behaved without us keeping them in line."

 

[bonnie]

My opinion is based on dealing with thousands of posts and behavior in this forum, brianman. But thanks for using inflammatory words like 'police state'. That's exactly the type of post that causes the political discussions to quickly go out of control. Very helpful example.

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Perhaps we're due for a Politics subforum (of the Energy forum?) with a(t least 2) moderators that are interested in such discussion. I suggest multiple moderators to hopefully address the natural bias that any individual moderator will likely have w/r/t to political leanings.

As to why so many moderators are responding, you might want to reread your original post. You asked for a couple of moderators to take this on. We all know how much work would go into a political forum, because we already are dealing with members unable to keep from using inflammatory words like 'police state' or taking pot shots at each other. So we are all saying 'no way would we do this'. Please remember, this is a volunteer position. And I'm not volunteering.

 

[Al Sherman]

A quilting subforum though. I wonder how quickly that would turn ugly.

Dr. Sherman would LOVE the quilting subforum. It might be a good way to get her involved. We could use a good shrink around here. :smile:

It might also be a good way to assure that she follows through on her MX reservation.

It would only turn ugly if you called a quilt she made a "blanket." As in: "So what if the dog's sitting on it. It's only a blanket." Trust me. Don't go there.

 

[ggies07]

It's extremy hard to not talk about it with EVs and Tesla in certain situations because it is an alternative to oil and the oil industry is a big part of our political system. It's all intertwined, therefore is extremely hard to monitor.

 

[dsm363]

Me neither. In a 'police state' there wouldn't even be a discussion about a police state.

I came to TMC because of the excellent moderation (which I had no clue what that meant before I started getting involved in that aspect). All I saw was a serious forum with great information and little to no spam. There is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes to try and make this as pleasant a place to hold a discussion as possible.

For example:
Obama: 'Will not wait' on Congress - John Bresnahan - POLITICO.com

Tell me comments like the ones below that article wouldn't send some people here over the edge and make a lot of unnecessary work (and it only took until the second comment to get to something I'd consider inflammatory and something that would derail a serious discussion). People get worked up about lighted visors, imagine if you are attacking their core belief system.

 

[NigelM]

It would only turn ugly if you called a quilt she made a "blanket."

So, no more blanket statements then....?



(Sorry couldn't resist that one!)

 

[dsm363]

It's extremy hard to not talk about it with EVs and Tesla in certain situations because it is an alternative to oil and the oil industry is a big part of our political system. It's all intertwined, therefore is extremely hard to monitor.

True. There will be a lot of overlap but a discussion about energy policy is a lot different than dealing with a discussion on the cultural wedge issues used to divide the electorate.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

…/ (Sorry to pick on him but...) As an example, I for one am glad we have the Climate thread so that we have somewhere to move 90% of Swedish's posts to. (And yes, 90% is an exaggeration but man I get tired of seeing the topic EVERYWHERE and then seeing banishments-due-to-politics happening within 5 posts regularly.) I'm also glad we have the Unions thread for similar reasons. /…

Those are some kind words :wink:

Especially since I actually can’t remember when I last posted anything about Man Made Climate Change outside of the Energy, Environment, and Policy sub-forum (or had a post moved to he Climate Change / Global Warming-thread. I’m actually unsure if that has even ever happened at all…)

 

[bonnie]

It would only turn ugly if you called a quilt she made a "blanket." As in: "So what if the dog's sitting on it. It's only a blanket." Trust me. Don't go there.

So, no more blanket statements then....?

And don't even talk about quilts with less than 10 stitches/inch. Or crooked. Please.

 

[NigelM]

Worth noting that there are 147 posts quarantined in the closed Politics thread out of 572,424 posts on TMC. That's 0.026% and only two of those posts mention Tesla or EVs. If anyone reads through the politics thread it's pretty easy to see why those posts were moved there.

We're not perfect but we're doing our best and, even if I say so myself, I think 147 out of 572,424 isn't excessive.


Edit: Ooops, I guess it's 572,425 now.... ;-)

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

We may have far less control of our own thoughts and choices in politics then we think we do:

Jonathan Haidt: The moral roots of liberals and conservatives - YouTube

The Surprising Brain Differences Between Democrats and Republicans | Mother Jones

There seems to be mounting evidence of biological differences between conservatives and liberals. Politics is definitely opinion-based, but I don't think we actually have much control over our opinions. The study in that TED talk that talks about different moral values per country seems pretty compelling to me.

/…/ I think evidence-based reasoning has trumped both liberal and conservative ideologies. While it's not possible to make everything into a science, I think we should take a science-like approach to everything from economics, /…/ fiscal management, social welfare /…/ etc. We are really, really deep into the woods of this bizarro land where evidence doesn't matter. /...

So many interesting discussions

Another place, another time…


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On a serious note though: I’m not a member of any Group. How do they work? Could a Politics Group be a solution to what Brianman is asking for?

 

[brianman]

But thanks for using inflammatory words like 'police state'.

Apologies. The "chargedness" of this term is not what I meant. The concept is exactly what I meant though.

 

[dsm363]

A google search came up with this first. Don't know anything about it though
The Politics Forum

 

[brianman]

As to why so many moderators are responding, you might want to reread your original post.

I wanted moderator input. It's just interesting that it seems consistent in one direction across the moderators. It's both depressing and, unfortunately, unsurprising.

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You asked for a couple of moderators to take this on. ... And I'm not volunteering.

I think we're missing each other here. I'm suggesting a subforum and roles be offered (if there are willing volunteers). I think you're assuming I mean the existing "broad reach" moderators be responsible for stepping into this role. I am not. I'm referring to (I guess I'll make up a term) "limited powers, specific sub-forum content moderators".

 

[dsm363]

Apologies. The "chargedness" of this term is not what I meant. The concept is exactly what I meant though.

Not sure what you mean there. So you'd pick a different term for the moderation on this forum but in concept it is like a police state?