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Options / Pricing gripes for 160 mile version

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With the exception of the navigation I think it is a bit crazy that they want to charge for what is included in the tech package. For comparison's sake the similarly-priced 2012 Audi A6 and the Lexus GS 350 (RWD) both come standard with almost everything contained in the Model S tech package, although both Audi and Lexus charge more than $3750 for their packages containing navigation and a backup camera.

The A6 comes standard with Nappa leather and power-adjustable seats while heated front and rear seats cost $450. The $1500 Tesla wants for heated leather seats seems $800-$1000 too high when looking at some of the competitors.
 
Then why allow them to mix the base model price with the max model performance? Had they simply been clear about what the "$49k Model S" offers, there would be no issue at all. None.
The problem is that, until yesterday, they weren't sure where they wanted to draw the lines. Or at least within a few days of yesterday.

As such, the alternative would be to describe all planned features as 85-only features. People would have screamed that the 40 and 60 are gimped so they'd have to be more nuanced in the language, but I think that would have addressed your concerns.

On that note...
I'm talking about what got me to and sustained me after the reserve.
If they explicitly said none of the "interesting" features are even optionable for the 40 model would you have not reserved (and promoted Tesla with friends)? If the answer is yes, then you can see why they (and the industry general) have motivation to be intentionally vague. If the answer is no, then you shouldn't be considering cancelling your reserve at this point; other than to take a principled stance that you feel deceived (which is arguably a valid reason but has practical consequences for you getting to enjoy an S before 2014).

When the Model S is in full production, if Tesla advertised the 'Model S' as going 0-60 in 5.6 seconds and recharging in an hour, but does not qualify that it applies only to the high-end model, you don't think they'd be in trouble if they also included the $49k price in that advertisement?
I think we're in agreement here about the future expectations -- as of yesterday's official posting is well past prototype and ballpark numbers. They have to be careful in the language, which is why they're reviewing the official pages and updating old information rapidly.

Do you think they really didn't know that the 0-60 specs didn't apply to the 160? Do you think they didn't know the 160 wouldn't be super-charge capable?
The former they should have brought to community attention earlier. The right time probably would have been when they announced Sport/Performance. A "bad news / good news" post that covered both topics would have made people grumble, but eventually come to peace with the decision long before pricing/options sticker shock.

The latter I think they should have spoken up earlier, perhaps when they first disclosed supercharging, but I think it was a mixture of concerns that led to the decision. They may not have known until relatively recently that the combination of these concerns would lock in that conclusion.

I imagine the same could be said for crippling the 160's viability by prohibiting supercharging so that the company gets the biggest bang for it's buck (if that is the case based on speculation here). Good in the short-term, but what about the future?
Nah, I see those as different. Ordering the shipping priority to help the financials (300 before 230 before 160) is different from feature availability decisions by battery capacity.

But it's not arbitary with respect to the 160. It's a decision made by the company to place the less important customers at the back of the line.
Totally disagree with the characterization here. If you really feel like Tesla is considering smaller battery capacity customers as "less important", that's a problem that they need to fix. The feedback you might want to give to Tesla is that for the X they might want to consider making battery capacity an at-reserve selection and making the reserve fee relative to battery capacity (3k, 5k, 7k for example). Or something like that, so that you are paying less up-front because your place in the queue is later.

Where did Tesla tell me this was preliminary information?
Until they start listing available options, what is standard per category (Base/Perf/Sig/SigPerf), and what the non-standard options cost per category it's all preliminary pretty much by definition. That's what made yesterday's information release so significant.

They would have a hell of a time saying the Signature "standard" battery was less than 85 kWh or that the signature badging cost extra on top of the Signature standard packaging. But other than really crazy stuff like that, there was a lot of vagueness in previous posts about what would be standard per category.

By that reasoning, maybe these option prices will change too and it will be our fault for not understanding that they are, after all, still preliminary at this point?
If they make significant changes in yesterday's numbers in a way that makes pricing go upwards, then I think pretty much everyone here would be in agreement with you that it's worth getting upset about (and vocal). Configuration "guesses" before yesterday are a different story though.

And if a 300 ends up as the showcase vehicle, but there's a big sign at the door shouting, "$49k!", would that be an acceptable advertising strategy from Tesla?
Nope. And it will potentially get them into legal trouble for doing so. I expect the showcase vehicles to be "well equipped" and the reps to be pointing that out incessantly so there's absolutely no reasnoable chance for confusion.

Again I appreciate your response, and I am trying to consider the things you've mentioned.
Aye. Just trying to help.

I hope Tesla makes you happy, so that you won't give up on them and because your concerns are valid. Where we disagree, I think, is in the degree that they were deceptive or not above-board.

I think we totally agree that they could have done some things better. I think a key learning for Tesla going forward (X, Bluestar) is to do some simple PR things just a little better. One example is to have someone responsible for reading the official forums (and perhaps these forums) regularly and making sure that blog posts quickly address misconceptions, confusion, and heated debates. I'm not saying they should disclose information prematurely. They have the blog post platform to talk about things, but they've used it for big reveals not minor course corrections for the public interpretation of the big reveals.
 
Bottom of the options page, clear as day...
Actually it wasn't in the bottom of the options page or in the image you provided. That part has the "TBD" that I referenced.

The "optional" in reference to Supercharging the 60 kWh was in the table in the BATTERY & PERFORMANCE section.


The combination of those two suggests to me that they are planning to specify a cost for the Supercharger Access option on the 60 kWh battery (rather than make it standard), but haven't decided on a price yet.
 
jimbakker666: You have every right to pull your reservation but I hope you're reconsider and take time to think thinks over since you have a few months to do so before having to lock down production. Brianman's post is excellent and well thought out and I agree in that I don't think Tesla pulled a bait and switch. I really hope Tesla finds a way to make you and everyone else happy with their reservation decision.

Most people understood that the $49,000 price point was a base model and that options would drive the price up at least $10,000.
Should there have been an qualifier next to the 5.6 second acceleration? Sure but that's something they might not have been able to determine until the beta cars were in testing.

Also, putting the 40 kWh packs at the end of the production probably has more to do with ramping up production that treating them as inferior customers. I'm sure the next production year you'll get your car based on when you order it instead of the size of the battery pack.

The Model S is a cutting edge EV and the best and only in it's class at the moment. They can't afford to sell the car at a loss like Toyota did with the Prius or Nissan may be doing with the Leaf (not sure about that). It's possible they determined the $49,000 price point they set up wasn't possible without the compromises you've pointed out.

Read smorgasbord's post here. He had many of the questions people asked answered and it sounds like the lack of quick charging has more to do with warranty issues than anything (allowing quick charging on the 40 kWh pack would damage the cells more than larger packs so keeping the 8 year warranty would be difficult).
 
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Read smorgasbord's post here. He had many of the questions people asked answered and it sounds like the lack of quick charging has more to do with warranty issues than anything (allowing quick charging on the 40 kWh pack would damage the cells more than larger packs so keeping the 8 year warranty would be difficult).
That was one of my speculations about the supercharging. For those who say the pack can put out more power accelerating, that's true, but not for an hour straight, with no airflow to aid cooling. Also many cell chemistries are not symmetrical, they can put out charge faster than they can take it.
I understand the disappointment in the 0-60 times though some of us speculated that the base model might not have the same performance as larger packed models simply because the pack could not support it. However, I do wonder how many people actually use the full 0-60 time available, in any vehicle. Do you really floor it from a stoplight that often? Because if not then you aren't really using the full potential anyway, and most people don't.
 
I was already pissed that Tesla pushed the people planning to get a 160-mi Model S to the back of the reservation line, especially as an early reservation holder. It seems unfair to allow those that have supported Tesla from the beginning with a upfront loan to be pushed aside in favor of a guy who decided to get a Model S more than 2 years later. I understand that it's more efficient cost wise to produce a single battery pack option first, and given that they are going to collect greater margins on the higher capacity packs, I get the business reasoning for doing so. However, what if they did a similar thing with every other option? Those getting a White Model S will get their's before those getting a Blue Model S. Before you know it, the reservation order is meaningless, as your particular choice in options is what dictates order placement. Tesla should have found a way to avoid this and honor the original reservation order.

While we may have speculated that 0-60 times would be affected by battery pack size, it is still none-the-less disappointing to see it at 6.5 seconds. I think if they were all below 6, it'd be something we'd all be willing to embrace a bit more. But given how the Performance option shaves a full 1.2 seconds using the same 85kWh battery as the standard 300-mi option, I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to it than it simply being a technical limitation. Elon Musk, who has been compared to Steve Jobs, models Tesla in many ways after Apple, and we all know Apple has been very keen on intentionally limiting features to encourage people to keep purchasing the next generation version of the same product. Now obviously with such a high-priced item, Tesla cannot afford to limit things too much and play for the next generation. But they certainly can try and influence your decision to buy the higher priced, higher margin options by disappointing you slightly with the lower end options.

But the biggest disappointment is clearly the lack of Supercharge. I never planned on driving cross country with my Model S, but it certainly could be used on a 300 mile or 450 mile trip. And having the option to make just 2 to 4 half-hour stops along the way to do so is more than acceptable by me. Not having Supercharge all-but kills that possibility. And even if I decide to go with the $10,000 premium 230-mile option, the price for the Supercharge feature on it is to-be-determined. I think this is clearly a case of Tesla doing its best to encourage people to buy the more expensive priced, higher margin options, while still being able to grab the headlines and gain traction publicly by stating they're offering a premium luxury electric sedan at under $50,000.
 
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While we may have speculated that 0-60 times would be affected by battery pack size, it is still none-the-less disappointing to see it at 6.5 seconds. I think if they were all below 6, it'd be something we'd all be willing to embrace a bit more. But given how the Performance option shaves a full 1.2 seconds using the same 85kWh battery as the standard 300-mi option, I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to it than it simply being a technical limitation. Elon Musk, who has been compared to Steve Jobs, models Tesla in many ways after Apple, and we all know Apple has been very keen on intentionally limiting features to encourage people to keep purchasing the next generation version of the same product. Now obviously with such a high-priced item, Tesla cannot afford to limit things too much and play for the next generation. But they certainly can try and influence your decision to buy the higher priced, higher margin options by disappointing you slightly with the lower end options.

This is an unreasonable conclusion from the evidence.

There are a lot more variables than the battery.
The 85kWh battery can produce 2.125 times more power than the 40kWh battery ( at the same C rate )
To produce 160kW from the 40kW battery that means 400amps at 400volts.
If the 85kWh battery produced 340kW that would be 850amps at 400volts.
You need
#1 a battery that can produce the power.
#2 a PEM that can handle the power
#3 a motor that can handle the power
Handling more power may mean bigger wires, more expensive components or more components.
Switching/adding components to handle more power means you dont have a smooth continuous function of power to cost.
 
Bigger wires

At the event I was speaking with a engineer who worked on the power train / motor and he said that there were bigger wires in the performance version to handle the higher power. I don't imagine that the wiring is different between the three battery pack option vehicles probably just the chemistry and the capability of the cells (C rating mostly) and maybe their weight, which is what changes acceleration. I have a few Rc helis and if you just change your wiring and battery to a higher C rated battery w/ the same Ah rating and same weight you can have an insane difference in speed!
Upping the voltage and lowering Amperage can also have a big change in performance and totally different heating characteristics.

These cars are going to be Awesome!
 
At the event I was speaking with a engineer who worked on the power train / motor and he said that there were bigger wires in the performance version to handle the higher power. I don't imagine that the wiring is different between the three battery pack option vehicles probably just the chemistry and the capability of the cells (C rating mostly) and maybe their weight, which is what changes acceleration. I have a few Rc helis and if you just change your wiring and battery to a higher C rated battery w/ the same Ah rating and same weight you can have an insane difference in speed!
Upping the voltage and lowering Amperage can also have a big change in performance and totally different heating characteristics.

These cars are going to be Awesome!

I wish they'd allow you to get a performance option for all battery packs. Sure the 6.5s 40kWh option wouldn't drop to 4.4s. But maybe it could be made to handle 5.2s or something, with larger wires and other tweaks. If they offered that as a $5,000 option, I'd spring for that. I don't have a big need for the higher range battery pack, but I'm all for getting the most performance.
 
I'm pretty sure the tweaks would need to be include a different battery completely in addition to the wires. The cells just cant put out that many amps continuously or they will fry
or take that many amps in. reason for no Super fast charge. Try charging a lipo at different Amps and the temp of the cells changes drastically when you get near the limit of what the cell can handle
 
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]Those getting a White Model S will get their's before those getting a Blue Model S.

First, please read this post.

The color analogy is actually a good one. Are you getting a Sig? Suppose you were, and then yesterday you found out you couldn't get a Blue Sig. You really wanted blue! Why is Tesla doing this? Would you have been happier if Tesla said the Red ones come out first and Blue ones move to the back of the queue? That's essentially what they did with the batteries. Instead of saying there is no 40kWh battery, they said they'll produce them later.

Tesla could have setup different queues for the different specs, but that would not only be a huge pain for Tesla, it'd lock people in to choices they couldn't yet make because they didn't have all the information. So, there's a single queue and Tesla will shift things around based on production requirements.
 
I wish they'd allow you to get a performance option for all battery packs. Sure the 6.5s 40kWh option wouldn't drop to 4.4s. But maybe it could be made to handle 5.2s or something, with larger wires and other tweaks. If they offered that as a $5,000 option, I'd spring for that. I don't have a big need for the higher range battery pack, but I'm all for getting the most performance.
Exactly - that's how Tesla was able to improve the performance of the original Roadster without going to a 2-speed transmission (reduced losses in the power inverter = more power to the motor with the same power draw from the batteries - and got a bit more range out of it in normal driving, too).

Then later they offered the hand-wound motor in the Roadster for the performance model - the hand-wound motor was more efficient so it made more power.

The thing is - the performance option costs $10k - not $5k, so unless you're all about efficiency most people are just going to get the larger pack and the increase in performance and range that goes with it. I could see offering it on the base model for those who want the lightest car possible - but that depends on the weight difference between the 40 kWh and 60 kWh cars.
 
However, what if they did a similar thing with every other option? Those getting a White Model S will get their's before those getting a Blue Model S. Before you know it, the reservation order is meaningless, as your particular choice in options is what dictates order placement. Tesla should have found a way to avoid this and honor the original reservation order.

There is a way. They could put the white cars, the ones for later reservation holders, in storage after they're done and hold off on delivering them until the blue one is finished and delivered, all so the queue order is maintained.

Yeah, that was sarcasm, sorry, but are we really talking about this? You can't expect TM to reconfigure something like the painting phase of the cars just to keep manufacturing in order of reservation number, right? If we have 9 orders for white cars and 1 for blue, you can be sure that I would finish all 9 white cars in one go rather than trying to maintaining order numbers. If we want TM to succeed, we have to allow some level of common sense here...
 
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There is a way. They could put the white cars, the ones for later reservation holders, in storage after they're done and hold off on delivering them until the blue one is finished and delivered, all so the queue order is maintained.

Yeah, that was sarcasm, sorry, but are we really talking about this? You can't expect TM to reconfigure something like the painting phase of the cars just to keep manufacturing in order of reservation number, right? If we have 9 orders for white cars and 1 for blue, you can be sure that I would finish all 9 white cars in one go rather than trying to maintaining order numbers. If we want TM to succeed, we have to allow some level of common sense here...

Fisker did the same. Many signature people are getting their cars AFTER standard orders because of paint. Though fisker has had some issues with its paint, It's also somewhat common with other auto manufacturers. It makes sense to do like-runs.