Ontario EV incentives upped to $14K... and decreased to $3k for Tesla

[Ktowntslafan]

I'm hopeful that the Feds will influence the situation. This is unacceptable conduct post COP21 and media would eat it up IMO.

Trudeau Tweets COP21 Photo With Leaders, Says 'We're All In This Together'

Just in from COP21 boss:

Christiana Figueres on Twitter:

Let's change some minds. Let's support this guy:

 

[Breezy]

No reason?

The CVMA’s membership includes FCA Canada Inc.; Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited; and General Motors of Canada Limited.

The CVMA creates a framework within which member companies work together to achieve shared industry objectives on a range of important issues such as consumer protection, the environment and vehicle safety.

The CVMA provides research, information, industry-government advocacy and other services aimed at building a better understanding of the importance of a healthy automotive industry to Canada's economic well-being and prosperity.

I agree, that's a likely part of the explanation, but it's not a climate-policy based reason, which was the intent of my comment.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I agree, that's a likely part of the explanation, but it's not a climate-policy based reason

Good summary and precisely why this is such a big deal.

 

[mknox]

I actually believe that there are better places to spend the incentive than on individual purchasers, personally I'd use it to fund infrastructure instead, I bet the same dollar value could generate a lot of high power charging stations at highway rest stops if they put their mind to it, and I bet that would be more likely to encourage adoption than an incentive, but really, anything is a step the right direction, and I'm jealous of provinces that are doing SOMETHING

I agree. We need to remember that these rebates are intended to be an "incentive" and not a "reward". They are designed to move someone to take action that they wouldn't have taken otherwise without the rebate. The evidence seems to show that buyers of more expensive cars are not significantly swayed by the incentive money, therefore it seems like a bit of a waste spending taxpayer money on something that is going to happen anyway. There is probably some "free ridership" with less expensive cars too, but it seems that the incentive money there actually did swing people toward an EV purchase and away from a comparable ICE.

One of the big identified barriers (in the public's mind) still seems to be around lack of charging infrastructure. I think spending the money on a robust Level 3 charging infrastructure would actually do more to spur EV adoption than these rebates seem to be doing.

 

[Jaff]

Source?

Again, source?

Please don't tell me that its from the committee work Mike...those committees are just data gathering sessions imo...the results are "politically massaged" to fit this Provincial government's agenda.

I agree. We need to remember that these rebates are intended to be an "incentive" and not a "reward". They are designed to move someone to take action that they wouldn't have taken otherwise without the rebate. The evidence seems to show that buyers of more expensive cars are not significantly swayed by the incentive money, therefore it seems like a bit of a waste spending taxpayer money on something that is going to happen anyway. There is probably some "free ridership" with less expensive cars too, but it seems that the incentive money there actually did swing people toward an EV purchase and away from a comparable ICE.
One of the big identified barriers (in the public's mind) still seems to be around lack of charging infrastructure. I think spending the money on a robust Level 3 charging infrastructure would actually do more to spur EV adoption than these rebates seem to be doing.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I agree. We need to remember that these rebates are intended to be an "incentive" and not a "reward". They are designed to move someone to take action that they wouldn't have taken otherwise without the rebate. The evidence seems to show that buyers of more expensive cars are not significantly swayed by the incentive money, therefore it seems like a bit of a waste spending taxpayer money on something that is going to happen anyway.

How many Model S in Norway due to incentives?

Tesla is the only manufacturer serious about EV's. Why in the world would we cut their incentive? The changes to EVIP will actually benefit BMW/AUDI/Merc etc. while hurting Tesla. CVMA will benefit from biz as usual and slowing Tesla. 30,000 Bolts worldwide and a few plug in hybrids ain't gonna save us.

 

[mknox]

Please don't tell me that its from the committee work Mike...those committees are just data gathering sessions imo...the results are "politically massaged" to fit this Provincial government's agenda.

No, this decision came from the Minister's office. There has been discussion of these and other topics at the committee level, but at the end of the day, the committee work is really just about providing education and guidance to ministry staffers and other parties.

I don't have any sources, but am willing to bet there is something. When I worked on the provincial electricity incentive programs, quite a bit of effort was expended to determine the effectiveness of the rebates and the resulting energy savings taking into account many variables. One of those variables was the idea of "free-ridership", in other words those who would have taken the conservation measures even without the rebates. The goal is to create a program that minimizes free-ridership. Not to have done this would have been reckless when spending dollars on conservation programs. In those programs, we were at least able to determine that the cost to save a kWh of consumption or kW of demand was lower than the cost of new build to generate it.

Now with the EV rebate program, I'm willing to bet that that there is an element of political partisanship mixed in for good measure as well. It is not in the nature of Left Wing governments to treat "the rich" the same as "the poor". They would be sensitive to even the idea of providing a "handout" to someone who can already afford a $75k+ car.

I wonder what the level of free-ridership actually was for Tesla purchasers? How many would have purchased the car either way? If that number is high (meaning would have bought the car even without the rebate), then the idea of a taxpayer funded incentive would indeed be a bad idea because clearly no incentive to change behavior is needed.

If this is to be a reward program, then anyone who purchases an EV should get the same level of reward money... but that was never the intent.

So circling back to @green1's original premise, funding may better be spent on infrastructure than on vehicle purchase incentives.

 

[beeeerock]

So circling back to @green1's original premise, funding may better be spent on infrastructure than on vehicle purchase incentives.

If you build the infrastructure, you essentially lure potential EV buyers into the market. Cheap driving, minimal range anxiety, minimal carbon guilt. "Look at all the places you can charge for free or at minimal cost!"

If you offer rebates, you're bribing purchasers to enter the EV market. "Look at all the money you'll save on your purchase!" But range anxiety will still exist and as the existing charging infrastructure gets more heavily used, whatever 'lure' might exist now will become much less bright and shiny.

It's a chicken-egg thing to some extent... sell the cars to drive charge station construction, or build the infrastructure and attract the cars?

 

[Jaff]

If it came from the Minister's office Mike, then I would consider the result "preordained".

I am willing to bet there is something too...political interference tainting the picture.

I am not in agreement that (even if the Prov Guv was capable of building out a massive Level 3 charging infrastructure without turning it into another of their frequent boondoggles), it would get move EV's on the roads vs. individual incentives.

No, this decision came from the Minister's office. There has been discussion of these and other topics at the committee level, but at the end of the day, the committee work is really just about providing education and guidance to ministry staffers and other parties.

I don't have any sources, but am willing to bet there is something. When I worked on the provincial electricity incentive programs, quite a bit of effort was expended to determine the effectiveness of the rebates and the resulting energy savings taking into account many variables. One of those variables was the idea of "free-ridership", in other words those who would have taken the conservation measures even without the rebates. The goal is to create a program that minimizes free-ridership. Not to have done this would have been reckless when spending dollars on conservation programs. In those programs, we were at least able to determine that the cost to save a kWh of consumption or kW of demand was lower than the cost of new build to generate it.

Now with the EV rebate program, I'm willing to bet that that there is an element of political partisanship mixed in for good measure as well. It is not in the nature of Left Wing governments to treat "the rich" the same as "the poor". They would be sensitive to even the idea of providing a "handout" to someone who can already afford a $75k+ car.

I wonder what the level of free-ridership actually was for Tesla purchasers? How many would have purchased the car either way? If that number is high (meaning would have bought the car even without the rebate), then the idea of a taxpayer funded incentive would indeed be a bad idea because clearly no incentive to change behavior is needed.

If this is to be a reward program, then anyone who purchases an EV should get the same level of reward money... but that was never the intent.

So circling back to @green1's original premise, funding may better be spent on infrastructure than on vehicle purchase incentives.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree that the direct rebate vs infrastructure enhancement can be a bit of a toss up right now, mostly due to the incorrect assumption by non-EV drivers that a massive charging infrastructure is needed to drive an EV...I do think that the cost price new is the largest impediment though...I also think that with the arrival of the Bolt / Model 3 / other yet to be announced 300 km ranged EVs, the cost price new issue will self correct (in time).

IMO, direct incentives are still a very necessary component to drive new sales in 2016.

If you build the infrastructure, you essentially lure potential EV buyers into the market. Cheap driving, minimal range anxiety, minimal carbon guilt. "Look at all the places you can charge for free or at minimal cost!"

If you offer rebates, you're bribing purchasers to enter the EV market. "Look at all the money you'll save on your purchase!" But range anxiety will still exist and as the existing charging infrastructure gets more heavily used, whatever 'lure' might exist now will become much less bright and shiny.

It's a chicken-egg thing to some extent... sell the cars to drive charge station construction, or build the infrastructure and attract the cars?

 

[Ktowntslafan]

No, this decision came from the Minister's office. There has been discussion of these and other topics at the committee level, but at the end of the day, the committee work is really just about providing education and guidance to ministry staffers and other parties.

I don't have any sources, but am willing to bet there is something. When I worked on the provincial electricity incentive programs, quite a bit of effort was expended to determine the effectiveness of the rebates and the resulting energy savings taking into account many variables. One of those variables was the idea of "free-ridership", in other words those who would have taken the conservation measures even without the rebates. The goal is to create a program that minimizes free-ridership. Not to have done this would have been reckless when spending dollars on conservation programs. In those programs, we were at least able to determine that the cost to save a kWh of consumption or kW of demand was lower than the cost of new build to generate it.

Now with the EV rebate program, I'm willing to bet that that there is an element of political partisanship mixed in for good measure as well. It is not in the nature of Left Wing governments to treat "the rich" the same as "the poor". They would be sensitive to even the idea of providing a "handout" to someone who can already afford a $75k+ car.

I wonder what the level of free-ridership actually was for Tesla purchasers? How many would have purchased the car either way? If that number is high (meaning would have bought the car even without the rebate), then the idea of a taxpayer funded incentive would indeed be a bad idea because clearly no incentive to change behavior is needed.

If this is to be a reward program, then anyone who purchases an EV should get the same level of reward money... but that was never the intent.

So circling back to @green1's original premise, funding may better be spent on infrastructure than on vehicle purchase incentives.

Can we get an entrepreneur or two in government please! This kills me!

So no consideration for the realities in the market? Ie. Tesla is only serious EV producer? Tesla has already built out a charging network, Big Auto doesn't want to electrify? Big Auto wants Tesla gone, etc? Just a bunch of number crunching?

Great article: Why Entrepreneurs Should Go Work for Government - HBS Working Knowledge - Harvard Business School

 

[hingisfan]

4 seats versus 5 seats.

There's 5 seats in both the Leaf and Soul. ?

 

[Ktowntslafan]

So no consideration for the realities in the market? Ie. Tesla is only serious EV producer? Big Auto doesn't want to electrify? Big Auto wants Tesla gone, etc? Just a bunch of number crunching?

Great post here:

Is Tesla being specifically targeted by the Ontario government? Has Ford, Chrysler or GM lead the charge in any way? They made EV’s because they were forced too. First by the Government and now by the consumers. Yet the incentive to buy a car that still produces emissions is larger than the incentive to buy a car that produces no emissions.

Ontario EV Incentive Program FAIL. | Heath Freels BLOG

 

[Peter_M]

The goal is to create a program that minimizes free-ridership.

Well, they clearly failed at that goal by making it retroactive. Anyone who had already decided to buy an EV was definitely not influenced by the increased incentive before it was announced, so for them it's a straight reward, not an incentive.

As for smart incentives to buy EVs, I think a super-off-peak electricity rate at night (say from 1am to 5am) would be a good one. It would make EV operation cheaper and would also encourage people to shift electricity demand to the night in other ways, including home energy storage devices (either batteries or simpler methods like a timer on a water heater).

- - - Updated - - -

There's 5 seats in both the Leaf and Soul. ?

There doesn't seem to be any logic to the actual incentive value. For example, why would the BMW i3 with a 22 kWh battery and 4 seats have a $13,000 rebate, when the KIA Soul EV with a 27 kWh battery and 5 seats have a $10,500 rebate? And why would a Chevy Volt hybrid that burns gas and has a small battery get a $11,877 rebate when it can only shift a limited amount of driving to zero-emission electric driving, where a zero-emission Nissan Leaf gets only a $9600 rebate (and even more to the point, a zero-emission Tesla Model S that can shift all driving, including long trips, to GHG-free, gets only a $3000 rebate)?

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Well, they clearly failed at that goal by making it retroactive. Anyone who had already decided to buy an EV was definitely not influenced by the increased incentive before it was announced, so for them it's a straight reward, not an incentive.

+100

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Can we get an entrepreneur or two in government please! This kills me!

So no consideration for the realities in the market? Ie. Tesla is only serious EV producer? Tesla has already built out a charging network, Big Auto doesn't want to electrify? Big Auto wants Tesla gone, etc? Just a bunch of number crunching?

Great article: Why Entrepreneurs Should Go Work for Government - HBS Working Knowledge - Harvard Business School

Truth:

legislation like this EV incentive smacks of lobbyist fingerprints all over it.

Elon recommended: Merchants of Doubt Official Trailer 1 (2014) - Documentary HD - YouTube

 

[RiverBrick]

... funding may better be spent on infrastructure than on vehicle purchase incentives.

Just in case somebody doesn't know, Ontario is spending $20,000,000 on infrastructure, primarily on 50 kW CHAdeMO/CCS. At the provincial level, Quebec has only committed about 1.5 million from Hydro-Quebec for DCQC, but has around 35 DCQC going up to 70 by year's end.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/electric/electric-vehicle-chargers-ontario-program.shtml

However, as already mentioned, the purchase incentives are weighted towards PHEVs that can't charge at more than 240V/16A.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

However, as already mentioned, the purchase incentives are weighted towards PHEVs that can't charge at more than 240V/16A.

Wow, really? So $20M infrastructure spend does not match up with "enhanced" EVIP, so is mostly a waste of money...did I get that right?

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I'm hopeful that the Feds will influence the situation. This is unacceptable conduct post COP21 and media would eat it up IMO.

Trudeau Tweets COP21 Photo With Leaders, Says 'We're All In This Together'

View attachment 111439

I've requested that Feds review: Ktowntslafan on Twitter:

Bold? Yes! Worth it? Yes!

Goal: Tesla gets full EVIP + starts manufacturing in Ontario (gigafactory & auto)

Everyone should re-watch Elon's speech at COP21 with "enhanced" EVIP in mind. We all need to speak up:

Vid here: Ktowntslafan on Twitter:

 

[Breezy]

They've published additional details including the program guide.

http://www.forms.ssb.gov.on.ca/mbs/...tFileAttach/023-2096E~3/$File/2096E_Guide.pdf

Incentives are capped at 30% of MSRP. There still appear to be some errors, but I think that explains some of the values. If Canadian MSRP for the Bolt or Model 3 doesn't exceed $46,666.67 then they'll qualify for the full $14,000 rebate.

 

[RiverBrick]

One good thing (for me) is that perhaps a slight drop in Ontario sales will cause Tesla Motors to shift some of its Supercharger budget East to Quebec.