Now that the charging standard war has ended, can we focus on...

[DblOSmith]

...the quality of charging stations? I would gladly spend an extra 10cents per kwh for a quality, well-lit station, with pull-thru spots, with trash, windshield cleaners, 24hr clean bathrooms, and amenities. I mean real gas station type locations. Can we get some movement or investment for people to convert closed gas stations into charging stations?

Or if Buc-ees converted 4 out of its 100 gas pumps into chargers, I would gladly prioritize them.

 

[RTPEV]

Excellent points, although I would add reliably available (maybe this is what you mean by quality), protected from the weather (less important with an EV, but still appreciated), and adequately sized (# of stalls to avoid queuing issues). Perhaps the latter can be solved simply through redundancy.

 

[ewoodrick]

...the quality of charging stations? I would gladly spend an extra 10cents per kwh for a quality, well-lit station, with pull-thru spots, with trash, windshield cleaners, 24hr clean bathrooms, and amenities. I mean real gas station type locations. Can we get some movement or investment for people to convert closed gas stations into charging stations?

Or if Buc-ees converted 4 out of its 100 gas pumps into chargers, I would gladly prioritize them.

You may want to get out a little more.

ALL the Buc-ees in Georgia have Supercharging V3 with more than a dozen slots.

Look at the Supercharger display in the car, if it has amenities, it is annotated as such. Most of the new ones do have amenities, including food within walking distance. There are an increasing number associated with gas stations, so that takes care of windshield cleaners.

Closed gas stations are problematic. If the tanks are still in the ground, it's an EPA issue. And you know that the restrooms aren't in great shape.

I'm not sure if others would be willing to pay $6 per charge for the amenities.

 

[ewoodrick]

Excellent points, although I would add reliably available (maybe this is what you mean by quality), protected from the weather (less important with an EV, but still appreciated), and adequately sized (# of stalls to avoid queuing issues). Perhaps the latter can be solved simply through redundancy.

How many times do you experience queuing?

Sure, I-95 may get some times, but there's been a lot added to the route. I've got a really busy one near me in Buford GA, but it probably queued maybe a few minutes on a busy day.

 

[DblOSmith]

You may want to get out a little more.

You may not want to assume that I don't. GA isn't the only state in the world with Buc-ees. ...and the ones that do don't have half the amenities I listed. I know that tanks are an EPA issues. ...so what? You make it sound like it's as difficult as passing the light barrier. Regulations change all the time. ...and if you life in a place with a lot of options, I'm sure you wouldn't be willing to pay it. ...but on a road trip if I had to choose between abandoned mall and paying $6 for amenities, it's an easy choice.

 

[RTPEV]

How many times do you experience queuing?

Sure, I-95 may get some times, but there's been a lot added to the route. I've got a really busy one near me in Buford GA, but it probably queued maybe a few minutes on a busy day.

Me, never. At least not at a Supercharger (I've come close--I was the 8th car to arrive at a site twice). But I have experienced it at two EA sites. The point being, if we're developing a wish list, I think it ought to include that as a requirement. I've seen some pretty undersized sites, and the EA site in Cary, NC (which I see on my EA app) shows FULL probably 75% of the time I get into the app (which is probably once every day or two).

 

[ewoodrick]

You may not want to assume that I don't. GA isn't the only state in the world with Buc-ees. ...and the ones that do don't have half the amenities I listed. I know that tanks are an EPA issues. ...so what? You make it sound like it's as difficult as passing the light barrier. Regulations change all the time. ...and if you life in a place with a lot of options, I'm sure you wouldn't be willing to pay it. ...but on a road trip if I had to choose between abandoned mall and paying $6 for amenities, it's an easy choice.

The only abandoned mall that I tend to know of is in Auburn, and oh yeah, Meridian.

With the number of chargers on a lot of routes today, you have a choice. From ATL to ORL I can skip at least 2 chargers most of the time.

So what on the EPA issue? It's expensive to remediate and that's why you tend to see them rot in place. Much cheaper to buy the property next to it and build.

But again, I've to quite a few chargers in the SE and many are quite nice. No, they are not spa destinations, but at least I don't smell diesel or gas there!

 

[Unclepaul]

Gas station restrooms are mostly in their Mini Markets, which are profitable enough to provide these services.

Instead of including Mini -Markets, Tesla tends to site their Superchargers near by to amenities.

Goal not is to double the amount of Superchargers, not double the cost of the existing ones.

 

[houstonian]

While I like amenities at a SC, I am not sure TSLA see themselves as being in the business of ‘hospitality’ for all intents and purposes.

Seems the win here - for all - is to show host locations they’ve got a captive market in chargers, regardless of the brand, and therefore a new revenue stream with people who want everything from a clean/bright/safe place to park to a hardy meal.

Buc-ee’s seems an ideal candidate for this (and perhaps others like WawWaw?) in that their land/lot is large … very large … meaning there’s ample space and parking for 30m/1hr as folks charge, versus~15m for a gas pump.

Moreover, they’ve already got the infrastructure to capture revenue to charger patrons (drinks, snacks, “beaver nuggets”, and so on) suggesting a commercial win for the company, a better experience for patrons, and more locations for charging.

For the other locations perhaps some entrepreneurs will figure out a food truck/coffee truck options, and while appreciated, I don’t know if that’s a good long term solution to be relied on.

Bottom line: showing hosts they can capture $ by offering a good charging experience is the way forward here I think.

$0.02

 

[DblOSmith]

I don't mean that Tesla themselves have to do it. I'd just want a focus on more different types of options. I don't care what chargepoint operator or equipment is used, so long as it works.

 

[Rice&Curry]

How many times do you experience queuing?

Sure, I-95 may get some times, but there's been a lot added to the route. I've got a really busy one near me in Buford GA, but it probably queued maybe a few minutes on a busy day.

I don't know about GA, but in CA, SCs get super busy during long weekends. In 2019 during a long weekend, we were waiting to charge at a SC and the line was so long, that the local retailers called the cops stating that the long line of Tesla cars is preventing their customers coming to the stores. It is now 2023 and there are 3 to 4X cars in CA compared to 2019, so SC's are still very busy on long weekends due to travel.

 

[Watts_Up]

I don't know about GA, but in CA, SCs get super busy during long weekends. In 2019 during a long weekend, we were waiting to charge at a SC and the line was so long, that the local retailers called the cops stating that the long line of Tesla cars is preventing their customers coming to the stores. It is now 2023 and there are 3 to 4X cars in CA compared to 2019, so SC's are still very busy on long weekends due to travel.

I wonder why Tesla doesn't provide a waiting list registration for busy days,
so you could normaly park your car and wait for your number to be sent when a spot is available.
Instead of creating long waiting lanes blocking all the traffic.

 

[srs5694]

I wonder why Tesla doesn't provide a waiting list registration for busy days,
so you could normaly park your car and wait for your number to be sent when a spot is available.
Instead of creating long waiting lanes blocking all the traffic.

It seems to me that one possible unexpected, but positive, outcome of the recent Tesla/(Ford/GM) announcements is that other charging networks will be forced to carefully examine their businesses in an effort to find ways to make themselves more appealing than Tesla Superchargers. There are obvious things they can (and must!) do like improving reliability, but implementing a queueing system like you suggest is one way that a network could differentiate itself from the competition. Maybe -- just maybe -- we'll see some innovations and improvements from non-Tesla DC fast charger operators as a result of this shift. I'm far from certain it'll happen, but it might, and such changes will be a benefit to all EV drivers.

 

[DblOSmith]

I wonder why Tesla doesn't provide a waiting list registration for busy days,
so you could normaly park your car and wait for your number to be sent when a spot is available.
Instead of creating long waiting lanes blocking all the traffic.

It seems to me that one possible unexpected, but positive, outcome of the recent Tesla/(Ford/GM) announcements is that other charging networks will be forced to carefully examine their businesses in an effort to find ways to make themselves more appealing than Tesla Superchargers. There are obvious things they can (and must!) do like improving reliability, but implementing a queueing system like you suggest is one way that a network could differentiate itself from the competition. Maybe -- just maybe -- we'll see some innovations and improvements from non-Tesla DC fast charger operators as a result of this shift. I'm far from certain it'll happen, but it might, and such changes will be a benefit to all EV drivers.

I queueing system only works if people use it. Not everyone is saavy, sexy, or plays well with others as we all might. If there is a electronic queue, that'd require activation or navigation to the station or something. If someone randomly drives up and takes a spot, a problem can start really quickly. I remember charging at the Nashville supercharger on Thompson Ln. when they were only 5 stalls (apparently they recently expanded to 24). Someone cut the line and they were {this} close to coming to blows.

Having said that, I think it would be possible for someone to plug in and then get a message that says "Due to high usage, there is a virtual queue at this station. Your vehicle will not charge at this time. Please navigate to this station to enter virtual queue and you will be notified when it is your turn to charge." ... However, working that with FordPass app, and all the other OEM apps and cars sounds like a pain and will cause confusion.

Ultimately, I think the it would be better to expand stations (or build more) and occasionally deal with the occasional line on busy days than to make an electronic queue that not everyone will use (or know how to use) and that will cause confusion. Everyone understands physical queues. Not everyone will understand a virtual one.

 

[tonybelding]

Or if Buc-ees converted 4 out of its 100 gas pumps into chargers, I would gladly prioritize them.

I recently stopped by the Buc-ee's in Temple, Texas. They have 48 Supercharger stalls now.

Impressive as that was, I'm not sure that Buc-ee's is the most perfect model for the future. For example. . . Despite the mammoth size of the store, there's no tables, no place to sit down. They don't want you to. And on the weekend that place was hectic with the sheer crowd of people milling around inside.

From my observation, convenience stores have been gradually evolving in the right direction. I don't mean the little urban "kwik stop" stores. I'm afraid the future looks bleak for those. But out on the open road, the typical "travel stop" (which is also sometimes a truck stop) has been gradually expanding and becoming a place where spending 20 or 30 minutes is no challenge.

The best example I've seen is the new travel stop at Henrietta, Texas, called the Texas Best Smokehouse. (It's #8, because apparently there's a chain of them, but it's the only one I've encountered thus far.) Yes, they do have BBQ, but it's also a full convenience store, gas station, Supercharger station, there's a Steak 'n Shake in the same building, and even the animatronic Dinosaur Parade outside right next to the charging stalls.

 

[DblOSmith]

I recently stopped by the Buc-ee's in Temple, Texas. They have 48 Supercharger stalls now.

Impressive as that was, I'm not sure that Buc-ee's is the most perfect model for the future. For example. . . Despite the mammoth size of the store, there's no tables, no place to sit down. They don't want you to. And on the weekend that place was hectic with the sheer crowd of people milling around inside.

From my observation, convenience stores have been gradually evolving in the right direction. I don't mean the little urban "kwik stop" stores. I'm afraid the future looks bleak for those. But out on the open road, the typical "travel stop" (which is also sometimes a truck stop) has been gradually expanding and becoming a place where spending 20 or 30 minutes is no challenge.

The best example I've seen is the new travel stop at Henrietta, Texas, called the Texas Best Smokehouse. (It's #8, because apparently there's a chain of them, but it's the only one I've encountered thus far.) Yes, they do have BBQ, but it's also a full convenience store, gas station, Supercharger station, there's a Steak 'n Shake in the same building, and even the animatronic Dinosaur Parade outside right next to the charging stalls.

I agree 100%. Buc-ees needs tables, pull thru stalls, and you're right. The crowds aren't for everyone. Love their bathrooms, though.

 

[ewoodrick]

I don't know about GA, but in CA, SCs get super busy during long weekends. In 2019 during a long weekend, we were waiting to charge at a SC and the line was so long, that the local retailers called the cops stating that the long line of Tesla cars is preventing their customers coming to the stores. It is now 2023 and there are 3 to 4X cars in CA compared to 2019, so SC's are still very busy on long weekends due to travel.

Once you said CA. I stopped reading.

Very different environment from the remainder of the country. Especially in the high population density areas.

My response was to someone in Alabama, I explicitly looked before I replied, as they wouldn't have gotten the same response if they had been in CA.

 

[houstonian]

I queueing system only works if people use it. Not everyone is saavy, sexy, or plays well with others as we all might. If there is an electronic queue, that'd require activation or navigation to the station or something.

Yes/no here.

I don't think I'd go so far as to prevent someone from sniping a supercharger but do think if a simple, easy to understand "this location is anticipated to have ~20m wait when you arrive. If so, once you arrive onsite we'll add you to the digital line and let you know when it's your turn to charge and ask you please respect others who're already in line."

...and then have a window pop up when you arrive saying you're [x] in line with an estimated wait of [y].

Seems like an elegant way to help drivers of all EVs share a potentially scarce resource.

Also allows those who, uh, desperately need to 'pay the water bill' to park and run to the mens/ladies without having to worry about getting in and/or staying in a physical line.

Impressive as that was, I'm not sure that Buc-ee's is the most perfect model for the future. For example. . . Despite the mammoth size of the store, there's no tables, no place to sit down. They don't want you to. And on the weekend that place was hectic with the sheer crowd of people milling around inside.

Part of what'll bring Buc-ee's around, I think, is pets.

All they need to do is build out a pergola or something along a part of the grass on the edge of the already large parking lots to give folks a place to rest/eat.

Once you said CA. I stopped reading.

<chuckles> My mom's family is from California...but I've forgiven them. It's not their fault.

 

[DblOSmith]

Yes/no here.

I don't think I'd go so far as to prevent someone from sniping a supercharger but do think if a simple, easy to understand "this location is anticipated to have ~20m wait when you arrive. If so, once you arrive onsite we'll add you to the digital line and let you know when it's your turn to charge and ask you please respect others who're already in line."

I hear you. If we were all on a Federation planet, I'd agree with you. Right now, if it's optional, it's not going to work. Because who is to know who is already in line. An impatient jerk will jump in and say "I was next, it said so. Trust me. You can't tell me what I saw on my screen." Physical lines let everyone know where they are in line and lets everyone arriving know how long the line is. There's less room for shenanigans.

 

[RTPEV]

I hear you. If we were all on a Federation planet, I'd agree with you. Right now, if it's optional, it's not going to work. Because who is to know who is already in line. An impatient jerk will jump in and say "I was next, it said so. Trust me. You can't tell me what I saw on my screen." Physical lines let everyone know where they are in line and lets everyone arriving know how long the line is. There's less room for shenanigans.

I remember when Great Clips instituted their "check in on the app" system. The one I went to was always busy (the one I go to now is even busier) so I thought this was a great feature, as I could check in before leaving work and pretty much be first in line as soon as I walked in the door. At first I thought there would be some backlash from the other patrons who were not using that app that "they called the guy's name that literally just walked in the door and I've been sitting here for 40 minutes!". And maybe there was, because I noticed some time later that they installed a monitor facing into the waiting area that showed the queue (and whether the person was in the store or not). At first it seemed like only 2 or 3 people in the whole waiting area were using the queue, but now it seems like everybody is checking in on line. They made it convenient and clear and relatively easy to use. I'm sure they do get the occasional walk-in that has to wait 50 minutes, but the rest of us have figured it out and moved into the 2020's.

For some reason that I just don't understand, some folks have very strong feelings against implementing a queue. The technology is pretty much there. Even in the case of Ford/GM (and other) vehicles using the system, it could still work, particularly if it requires using the app to authenticate to the Supercharger anyway.

Yeah, people would have to navigate to the Supercharger to announce their intent to enter the queue (and from that point, the GPS in the car or phone could monitor estimated arrival and progress, and eventual arrival at the site). Why is this such a big deal? We already navigate to Superchargers to pre-condition the battery. And like the Great Clips example, yeah, I now pop into the app to check in online before I leave my house to go get a haircut. It's just the way it's done.