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Nonsense from John Petersen

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To be fair, we don't dismiss him out-of-hand at all, we thoroughly analyse what he says and try to figure out why he came to the wrong conclusion. If we were to dismiss him out-of-hand, it wouldn't be because we don't agree with his conclusions, it would be because he has been wrong on just about everything he has said about Tesla since we first started paying attention to him.

Now, I don't claim that we do all of this in the most civil language...

The funny thing is that he was spot on with most issues except Tesla and Axion (like failures of several US Li-ion battery producers).

I hope he will continue to be wrong about Tesla - we are in a very exceptional position to have Elon and a dedicated team behind, but the valley is full of the bones of those visionaries who wanted to change the world. Just imagine a full blast recall for the Model S because some faulty component from a supplier. Right now, Tesla does not have the resources to do that. And reservations of this cute car could simply come to a halt. that's one of the hardest industries of all and Tesla is against some giants (some of them are dinosaurs, but not all of them).

As for Axion, he was wrong with timing and the share price as a consequence. But the tech and the team are great. Once the ball starts rolling, their share price growth from a $31M market cap can do leaps and bounds around Tesla's [share price growth].
 
It is easy to look at a car company and decide it will fail because car companies are hard to build. What is hard is those of us that were buying shares at $17 because we did enough work to recognize that this one is different. I'll grant him no pardon for making the easy call on Tesla. If I can do it, he aught to be able to do it with all this experience you speak of.

And yes, the comment about how he resorts to personal attacks when his conclusions are questioned is absolutely right. I've been called names on more than one occasion when I tried to present a counter argument. I don't read anything on Seeking Alpha anymore because it has left such a bad taste in my mouth. I can get much better analysis elsewhere and have respectful debates about it.
 
I normally read every post in a thread so i try to respond with a lucid and factual response if I think I have something of value to add. That being shared I have read only the title of this thread, I quit reading anything that John Petersen puts in print because I have found him to be very deceptive in his data, very misleading in his material and totally worthless as a source of valuable information . Don't be mislead many of you know he has no value, the traps and misinformation will only catch the misinformed.


i think

i have anything to offer
 
The funny thing is that he was spot on with most issues except Tesla and Axion (like failures of several US Li-ion battery producers).

Actually, he's been wrong on most things. He was supportive of A123 when it IPO'd. Only later did he jump on the bandwagon. He's recommended XIDE from over $10/share down to under $3/share, and once claimed that XIDE's and TSLA's share prices would cross. He's been a supporter of ZBB, another money-losing stock (down like 75% or more). He writes that Wind and Solar production increase pollution. According to Petersen, the only thing that is good are start-stop hybrids. And, yeah, like it's co-incidence that's the market to which Axion has hitched its wagon.

Everything he writes goes through his own personal investment supportive filter. 'nuff said.
 
I think he is wrong about Tesla for several reasons. But we are all wrong sometimes, especially when we we try to predict the future.

I know John personally. He is a lawyer helping small companies structure in order to do IPOs. He writes those pesky SEC fillings for those companies. After 30+ years of experience, I think one should not dismiss him with a hand waive just because he has a different point of view and reaches different conclusions.

The problem is he pretends to speak about technology as if he is an expert, which he is not, and he tries desperately to ignore accurate information that's counter to his agenda. But you know all that.
Good to see you on the boards here Nicu, don't tell John you're hanging out here with the tinfoil hat crowd :biggrin:
 
The problem is he pretends to speak about technology as if he is an expert, which he is not, and he tries desperately to ignore accurate information that's counter to his agenda. But you know all that.
Good to see you on the boards here Nicu, don't tell John you're hanging out here with the tinfoil hat crowd :biggrin:

I got to meet John as we concluded after several months of discussions in the comments sections of his articles that we could never agree about Tesla - although we were constantly fighting, we managed to stay polite for a long time. So I went to visit him at his home to find out more about his reasoning.

As about his technical knowledge, he gets invited to speak at international battery conferences (here is a lead-acid example, but recently he has been contacted by Li-ion side too, http://www.ila-lead.org/UserFiles/File/conferences/13ELBC/Conference%20Brochure.pdf - btw, as this was close to my home, I looked up if I could go: it was about 2000€ to get to listen 3 days or so of talks). This shows not only that he knows a thing or two about the battery industry, but also that he meets most CEOs and CFOs of the industry and see where the wind blows. Then he shares his knowledge for free on SA.

I am not here to defend his as he doesn't need that and anyway it's none of my business. I am just saying that one should always follow Elon's advice, to pay more attention to negative feedback than to positive feedback. If we all gather here to cheer Tesla with no scrutiny, we are not gaining much knowledge.
 
...This shows not only that he knows a thing or two about the battery industry, but also that he meets most CEOs and CFOs of the industry and see where the wind blows. Then he shares his knowledge for free on SA.
I am one of those who gladly read negative articles about Tesla, to see if I`m missing something. And I agree that Peterson is smart. However, I find many of his articles so biased that they seem like worthless Tesla bashing. It`s okay to disagree, but not to dismiss all positive aspects of a company.

And let`s make one thing clear; top CEOs and CFOs have no crystal ball, and are often unable to see what`s happening before it`s too late. That`s why small companies can become successfull, and big companies fail. I`ve studied innovation for three years, and one of the most important lessons I`ve learned is that management often fail to see fundamental changes, or underestimate them. I know Clayton Christensen disagrees that Tesla is disruptive, but I find Tesla disruptive in many ways.

Take a look at Kodak, Nokia, Microsoft, Blockbuster +++.
 
... So I went to visit him at his home to find out more about his reasoning.
...

Welcome Nico. I really would be curious about his reasoning. Did you find out anything?
His articles come across as biased and often dismissive of Tesla using cutting jibes.
He raises some good points, but he never seems to consider the positives as a counterweight.

He also seems to have a bias towards his own investments, I don't think he can be objective.
 
I am one of those who gladly read negative articles about Tesla, to see if I`m missing something. And I agree that Peterson is smart. However, I find many of his articles so biased that they seem like worthless Tesla bashing. It`s okay to disagree, but not to dismiss all positive aspects of a company.

And let`s make one thing clear; top CEOs and CFOs have no crystal ball, and are often unable to see what`s happening before it`s too late. That`s why small companies can become successfull, and big companies fail. I`ve studied innovation for three years, and one of the most important lessons I`ve learned is that management often fail to see fundamental changes, or underestimate them. I know Clayton Christensen disagrees that Tesla is disruptive, but I find Tesla disruptive in many ways.

Take a look at Kodak, Nokia, Microsoft, Blockbuster +++.

Ha, Ha: I wrote an article more than a year ago saying the exact same thing: Tesla is disruptive not in the sense of Christensen, but as Apple was with the iPhone - disruption from the top end! Here is a link:
Apple And Tesla Motors: Serial Disruptors - Seeking Alpha

Note that Christensen considers the iPhone as a disruptor of computers (cheaper - also a reason he could not foresee the tsunami in 2007 / 2008 - I respectfully disagree), but I see it as almost creating a new market (the smartphone market was less than 10% of what it is now in 2007)

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Welcome Nico. I really would be curious about his reasoning. Did you find out anything?
His articles come across as biased and often dismissive of Tesla using cutting jibes.
He raises some good points, but he never seems to consider the positives as a counterweight.

He also seems to have a bias towards his own investments, I don't think he can be objective.

He is more of a utility guy. And he thinks at global scale. And he is right that non-ferrous metals used in the batteries (not to count the aluminum frame, did you know we are consuming 10x the energy to make 1 kg of Aluminum compared to steel? do you know how toxic is the pollution in places where bauxite is processed to obtain Aluminum?) are extracted in quantities that are 0.1% to 1% compared to oil. And they have to be processed (energy intensive), much more than oil.

Of course, you may say that those metals get recycled (not so true unfortunately - I have checked Umicore claims and independent research for what % of metals are recycled globally) and are not used every time you "fill up" your Model S. But they are in some sense, as the battery has a limited number of cycles. One may say that this is crazy, how can 1 in 1000 fill-ups consume that much? A simple way to see that is that you probably pay $500 / kWh of battery capacity (more for the Leaf / Volt - probably a bit less for P85 - it's just an example to illustrate scales). This gets cycled (at full) at most 1000 times (more than 250k miles with your P85 before replacing the battery). That amounts to about 50c per kWh stored that you probably buy for 5c to 15c. Shocking?

Would you buy a 15c coke that is stored in a $500 reusable bottle?

Oil is expensive and became a geopolitical problem because it is so easy to extract, use and transport and packs a lot of energy / kg (that's why we developed from around 1B people in 1900 to over 7B now - without oil more than half of us would not exist - the final reason for depletion of many other natural resources too). If EVs scale up with present tech, metal prices will soar dramatically. And the mining industry moves at a glacial speed compared to the oil industry. They will not be able to scale up nowhere near fast enough. Mining is also much dirtier and eco-system destroying than oil extraction (search for pictures from an usual mining site).

As for the cost reducing in Li-ion batteries, most of them have been realized during the last two decades. A rule of thumb is that you decrease price by around 20% every time you double production. Billions of laptops have been sold, each packing several 18650 cells. As for new chemistries that do wonders in the lab, 95% of them die before an industrial grade working prototype. And from there to mass commercialization, you have to count 5 to 10 years. I have been watching this space for at least 10 years, long before I bought my first share. And I was always wondering why we read every other week about a breakthrough battery discovery, but when you look back, it's only a very very slow specs improvement and price reduction. Now I know why mostly thanks to John and his articles.

I think Tesla will be successful in the short term because they are super-engineers and have a sleek and stylish product. But frankly, with today's tech, Model S and even Gen III cannot dominate the personal transportation market. We truly need new chemistries, that pack more energy / power for the buck, less metals (more carbon, silicon etc. - but not nano tech, we are not going to mass produce nano tech anytime soon). So I remain cautiously optimistic and I know we have to start somewhere, even if today's tech is not good enough - more demand will bring more money and interest to develop both clean transportation and energy production - we have made one step in a 1000 miles journey. On the other side, John has a more static view, he cannot believe that during one decade enough things will improve to make this work at a global scale.

(sorry for the typos, I hope Brian H is not around lol)
 
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Very interesting, and good points.
However, the energy to create the Aluminum is only half the picture. How much aluminum is used in other cars?
My understanding is that is more and more each year.

In addition, if you take the energy savings in making steel, and compare that to the energy losses due to the extra weight over the life of the car, how does that then turn out?

I ask because I don't know and it looks like you have done a lot of looking at this.

Many thanks for your time!
 
I think Tesla will be successful in the short term because they are super-engineers and have a sleek and stylish product. But frankly, with today's tech, Model S and even Gen III cannot dominate the personal transportation market. We truly need new chemistries, that pack more energy / power for the buck, less metals (more carbon, silicon etc. - but not nano tech, we are not going to mass produce nano tech anytime soon). So I remain cautiously optimistic and I know we have to start somewhere, even if today's tech is not good enough - more demand will bring more money and interest to develop both clean transportation and energy production - we have made one step in a 1000 miles journey. On the other side, John has a more static view, he cannot believe that during one decade enough things will improve to make this work at a global scale.

Thanks for your post. I think you are spot on in much of your thinking. However, I do think your qualifiers with "at present technology" are important qualifiers. I think a lot of stuff happened from the Roadster to the Model S. And I think even more will (need to) happen going forward.

I'm not sure if I share your pessimism with regards to the resources needed: In real life nobody can scale-up existing technology globally in just a day or two. Even if Tesla would triple their market share every year (which is not easy) they would still need years to be the next generation Toyota. And technology will continue to improve.

The fact that it can work, can be seen in Germany and their support to Solar: When they started the first solar subsidies technology was far away from being fit for scale (and financially viable). Now, solar technology is well understood, technically and financially viable. I expect similar technology advances in the car industry going forward and thus less reliance on aluminum and other scarce resources for GenIII and beyond.
 
A simple way to see that is that you probably pay $500 / kWh of battery capacity (more for the Leaf / Volt - probably a bit less for P85 - it's just an example to illustrate scales). This gets cycled (at full) at most 1000 times (more than 250k miles with your P85 before replacing the battery). That amounts to about 50c per kWh stored that you probably buy for 5c to 15c. Shocking?

Would you buy a 15c coke that is stored in a $500 reusable bottle?

compared to a gasoline car, you could ask "would you take a printer for free if the ink cartridges cost you $60 each every few days and you had drive somewhere to pick them up?"

the answer is a function of how much you drive.

my calculations have that 85kwh battery at $250/kwh and it can get cycled 5000 times is my understanding. cutting cot by half and increasing cycles by 5x creates an order of magnitude difference. maybe a single user won't use it that much, but the pack will still have good residual value after 1000 cycles.
 
Very interesting, and good points.
However, the energy to create the Aluminum is only half the picture. How much aluminum is used in other cars?
My understanding is that is more and more each year.

In addition, if you take the energy savings in making steel, and compare that to the energy losses due to the extra weight over the life of the car, how does that then turn out?

I ask because I don't know and it looks like you have done a lot of looking at this.

Many thanks for your time!

I did not do explicit computations. I believe in a ICE it pays back, but in the Model S it was needed more for range and driving dynamics, as the battery is so heavy. Of course, with time, all that electricity used to make Al (only a few % of that energy is used to recycle it however) could become green too.

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Thanks for your post. I think you are spot on in much of your thinking. However, I do think your qualifiers with "at present technology" are important qualifiers. I think a lot of stuff happened from the Roadster to the Model S. And I think even more will (need to) happen going forward.

I'm not sure if I share your pessimism with regards to the resources needed: In real life nobody can scale-up existing technology globally in just a day or two. Even if Tesla would triple their market share every year (which is not easy) they would still need years to be the next generation Toyota. And technology will continue to improve.

The fact that it can work, can be seen in Germany and their support to Solar: When they started the first solar subsidies technology was far away from being fit for scale (and financially viable). Now, solar technology is well understood, technically and financially viable. I expect similar technology advances in the car industry going forward and thus less reliance on aluminum and other scarce resources for GenIII and beyond.

Solar generation is under control in Germany. Grid balancing is not, yet. They need cheap an reliable electricity storage, which is still MIA.

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compared to a gasoline car, you could ask "would you take a printer for free if the ink cartridges cost you $60 each every few days and you had drive somewhere to pick them up?"

the answer is a function of how much you drive.

my calculations have that 85kwh battery at $250/kwh and it can get cycled 5000 times is my understanding. cutting cot by half and increasing cycles by 5x creates an order of magnitude difference. maybe a single user won't use it that much, but the pack will still have good residual value after 1000 cycles.

I hope those lab estimates of 5000 are in the ball park. But traditionally, Li-ion has been more like 500. Time will tell :)
 
As about his technical knowledge, he gets invited to speak at international battery conferences (here is a lead-acid example, but recently he has been contacted by Li-ion side too, http://www.ila-lead.org/UserFiles/File/conferences/13ELBC/Conference Brochure.pdf - btw, as this was close to my home, I looked up if I could go: it was about 2000€ to get to listen 3 days or so of talks). This shows not only that he knows a thing or two about the battery industry, but also that he meets most CEOs and CFOs of the industry and see where the wind blows.
As I posted recently on SA, Petersen has done a great job at selling himself as an expert, with very little actual technical expertise. He has posted reams of flat out misinformation about lithium ion batteries and EV technology in general, and has done a good job of ignoring those of us who tried to correct him. Eventually when the evidence is overwhelming he quietly works the new information into his lexicon. As you are also aware most of his resource concerns are unfounded as Nick Butcher and others have clearly shown. As for your aluminum example, yes it's more energy intensive per kg than steel, but you use fewer kg of aluminum than steel when building a car because it's lighter, so cost/kg is misleading. Not to mention that recycled aluminum is much less energy intense and the aluminum bodied car has a potential much longer life cycle than a steel bodied one. I'm afraid that being in close proximity to Petersen has infected you with his limited vision :wink:
I'm always open to counter arguments, which is why I spend so much time on SA, but they need to be well reasoned and based in fact.
 
As I posted recently on SA, Petersen has done a great job at selling himself as an expert, with very little actual technical expertise. He has posted reams of flat out misinformation about lithium ion batteries and EV technology in general, and has done a good job of ignoring those of us who tried to correct him. Eventually when the evidence is overwhelming he quietly works the new information into his lexicon. As you are also aware most of his resource concerns are unfounded as Nick Butcher and others have clearly shown. As for your aluminum example, yes it's more energy intensive per kg than steel, but you use fewer kg of aluminum than steel when building a car because it's lighter, so cost/kg is misleading. Not to mention that recycled aluminum is much less energy intense and the aluminum bodied car has a potential much longer life cycle than a steel bodied one. I'm afraid that being in close proximity to Petersen has infected you with his limited vision :wink:
I'm always open to counter arguments, which is why I spend so much time on SA, but they need to be well reasoned and based in fact.

He is obviously not an expert in Li-ion chemistry, but in the battery industry, which has more business than technical aspects.

But one should also question Tesla communications. For example, Elon said that even if the electricity comes from coal, Model S is still greener than a normal ICE. Just like oil, coal has to be extracted (much harder) and transported, but not refined. Let's put the 20% loss during refining into the 7% electric grid loss + 10-15% EV charging loss (let's forget about vampire loads etc.).

More than 2 lbs of CO2 are produced for 1 kWh from coal. This moves your Model S for about 3 miles. This means about 0.66 lbs / mile.
1 gallon of gasoline is about 6.07 lb. Burning is 2C8H18 + 25O2 ~> 16CO2 + 18H2O, that means 228 lb of gasoline produce 704 lb of CO2 (C is 12, H is 1, O is 16). Or a gallon of gasoline produces 18.74 lb of CO2. So to get to 0.66 lb / mile means around 28.4 mpg, which is average, much worse than my Prius.

Given that the car consumes much more energy to be produced and that after 10 years you may get a new battery, who knows, maybe is not greener. We all want to get to 100% renewables, but this will not be here in less than 50 years. Let's stay optimistic but pay attention to scales. For the time being, coal is pushed aside by a surprise contender: natural gas from f
racking. Is it better? I don't know.

In China, where 1 new coal power plant was built every week for almost a decade, is it better to go EV full blast, or small cars like Volkswagen Lupo that may go above 60 mpg ?
 
Solar generation is under control in Germany. Grid balancing is not, yet. They need cheap an reliable electricity storage, which is still MIA.

I agree. But the point was to demonstrate an example that in the beginning "did not work out" (neither financially nor technologically) and that it has been solved by now.

I guess fundamentally, it boils down to this:

If you ask if a 1000 times bigger "today's Telsa" would solve all mobility challenges we have, the answer is clearly NO (the Model S is too expensive for many people, does not have replace trucks etc. and its Battery is - while being at the cutting edge of what is possible today - still something that needs improvement.

If you ask if a Model S is a good solution for personal mobility in a given population the answer is clearly a YES. It has the range, the luxury, the dynamics and the looks of a great super sedan that's right for many people.

And I think that's what sets many of the pessimists apart from people who see a potential avenue to solving an issue.
 
If you ask if a Model S is a good solution for personal mobility in a given population the answer is clearly a YES. It has the range, the luxury, the dynamics and the looks of a great super sedan that's right for many people.

That's exactly why I say Tesla is a great product company which has made the first step in the right direction to solving the transportation / energy problem. But the remaining challenges are at least 10x of what has been achieved in this direction.
 
He is obviously not an expert in Li-ion chemistry, but in the battery industry, which has more business than technical aspects.

But one should also question Tesla communications. For example, Elon said that even if the electricity comes from coal, Model S is still greener than a normal ICE. Just like oil, coal has to be extracted (much harder) and transported, but not refined. Let's put the 20% loss during refining into the 7% electric grid loss + 10-15% EV charging loss (let's forget about vampire loads etc.).

More than 2 lbs of CO2 are produced for 1 kWh from coal. This moves your Model S for about 3 miles. This means about 0.66 lbs / mile.
1 gallon of gasoline is about 6.07 lb. Burning is 2C8H18 + 25O2 ~> 16CO2 + 18H2O, that means 228 lb of gasoline produce 704 lb of CO2 (C is 12, H is 1, O is 16). Or a gallon of gasoline produces 18.74 lb of CO2. So to get to 0.66 lb / mile means around 28.4 mpg, which is average, much worse than my Prius.

Given that the car consumes much more energy to be produced and that after 10 years you may get a new battery, who knows, maybe is not greener. We all want to get to 100% renewables, but this will not be here in less than 50 years. Let's stay optimistic but pay attention to scales. For the time being, coal is pushed aside by a surprise contender: natural gas from f
racking. Is it better? I don't know.

In China, where 1 new coal power plant was built every week for almost a decade, is it better to go EV full blast, or small cars like Volkswagen Lupo that may go above 60 mpg ?

You are taking extreme examples and trying to apply them to an entire system.
Virtually no one gets all their electricity from 100% coal, and not everyone drives a Prius.

I think your numbers are also off. I recommend you check out State of Charge, it is one of the best papers I have seen on exactly this topic.
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/electric-car-global-warming-emissions-report.pdf

Even if your numbers were correct though (and I don't think they are too far off if using data from a few years ago), the EV in your scenario is still better off than the average car (24mpg) and far better than the worse case vehicles.

However, I just realized, this really is of only minor importance to Tesla's success unless you are proposing that 'greenness' is critical to Tesla's business? I do agree it helps, but the cars have a lot going for them besides greenness.
 
However, I just realized, this really is of only minor importance to Tesla's success unless you are proposing that 'greenness' is critical to Tesla's business? I do agree it helps, but the cars have a lot going for them besides greenness.

Nope, I have stated several times: I think Tesla is a good investment (and I am in in a very aggressive way) because of the product. It's only when people get overexcited about saving the world that I shake my head :)

And JP talks almost exclusively about that aspect, and of course the business aspect (risks, cash on hand etc. etc.)

Oh, and I was taking the extreme example just because Tesla did - I was not criticizing the product or the approach.