No Supercharging for 40Kwh :(

[stopcrazypp]

So that I'm clear in my understanding here, can someone tell me how many miles are recovered per hour when charging the 160? What I see via the Tesla Options screen is this:
Single Charger
10kW on-board charger. Up to 31 miles of range per hour of charge.

Assuming there is no difference in efficiency between the 160,230,300 mile versions, that miles per hour figure should apply equally to all of them. The only version that will get more miles per hour of charge are the ones that opt for the optional 19" aerodynamic wheels, because it increases the efficiency by a max of 5%.

 

[surfingslovak]

BTW, how many of the 6K reservation holders reserved a 160 miler ?

That's a valid question and I can confirm that unless you wanted the Signature trim, there was no way to elect a particular battery size when placing a reservation. There was an informal poll on the forum, which seemed to indicated that the interest level in the 40kWh pack was relatively small. It's questionable however, whether the Tesla forum members constituted a representative sample of Model S buyers.

Poll on battery size. - View Poll Results

 

[dsm363]

Even the Signature reservation holders couldn't pick a battery size and were told only months ago that it would indeed come with the '300 mile' pack.

 

[jimbakker666]

Assuming there is no difference in efficiency between the 160,230,300 mile versions, that miles per hour figure should apply equally to all of them. The only version that will get more miles per hour of charge are the ones that opt for the optional 19" aerodynamic wheels, because it increases the efficiency by a max of 5%.

I should have been more clear. Is 31 miles of range per hour typical for a public charging station?

 

[EVNow]

I get your points, but I don't really think they addressed what I brought up. Is it an annoyance at a perceived slight or is it something that is genuinely a make or break thing?

As an "EV activist" I think it is bad for the movement.

I've been toying with the idea of getting an S when my Leaf lease ends in Feb '14. So, personally, this probably pushes S lower in my priority list, compared to Infiniti EV.

Actually, I think Tesla will have to change the decision on this. This will put the base S in a uncompetitive position.

 

[Doug_G]

Actually, I think Tesla will have to change the decision on this. This will put the base S in a uncompetitive position.

I suspect you are correct, as long as it is technically feasible for the Supercharger to automatically back off to half power when a 40 kWh pack is plugged into it.

In the real world, though, you're probably not going to encounter many Superchargers within major cities. Tesla will be installing them along highways.

 

[surfingslovak]

I suspect you are correct, as long as it is technically feasible for the Supercharger to automatically back off to half power when a 40 kWh pack is plugged into it.

I have to admit that I'm not familiar with Tesla's QC technology. The Chademo protocol Nissan and Mitsubishi are using in their fast chargers is eminently capable of throttling the output current. This behavior is typically observed towards the end of a charge session. There was a thread on the MNL forum where we were trying to come up with a creative way to limit Nissan's QC to 12KW power output. This would help avoid prohibitively high demand charges levied by several utility companies in California. Let's see what specific technology will Tesla deploy in their QC network.

 

[doug]

In a way, it's the smallest pack that can make the most use out of a quick charge. I'm sure those with the 40kWh pack would like to be able to use the growing 50kW capable CHAdeMO network that the even shorter ranged Leafs and i-MiEVs will be using.

 

[EVNow]

Realistically, depending on a quick charge in the next year or two for travel will leave you disappointed anyway unless you live along the east or west coast. It will be years before there is a Tesla super charger every 150 miles along major highways.

I think more than the Tesla chargers, CHAdeMO adopters would be very useful.

 

[EVNow]

I should have been more clear. Is 31 miles of range per hour typical for a public charging station?

Most public chargers are 6.6 kW - so can expect about 25 miles.

 

[dpeilow]

I was out of the loop last night so unable to get all the details or comment, but this does indeed suck bigtime.

All the comments on C rates and throttling the charger are valid and so this is just a business decision. Doug hits the nail on the head above.

Without CHAdeMO support, this is a total deal breaker on the 160 mile car for most I suspect. Whether they hold out to see what Infiniti does or just go PHEV for 90% of their electric needs remains to be seen.


It also adds confusion to what sites install charger-wise. Now do you put an 80A HPC2 alongside your supercharger in case a 160 miler turns up?

 

[Doug_G]

It also adds confusion to what sites install charger-wise. Now do you put an 80A HPC2 alongside your supercharger in case a 160 miler turns up?

Tesla Toronto told me that when they install chargers on the 401, they're going to put in HPCs and Superchargers. Maybe that's not just because of Roadster owners.

(Mind you they also told me months ago that they were going to install an HPC in Kingston, but backed away from doing it.)

 

[neroden]

I suspect you are correct, as long as it is technically feasible for the Supercharger to automatically back off to half power when a 40 kWh pack is plugged into it.

In the real world, though, you're probably not going to encounter many Superchargers within major cities. Tesla will be installing them along highways.

That's still going to be useful for an awful lot of people with 160s. Suppose Tesla spaces the Superchargers out at 300 mile intervals along, say, I-90. The people who live on I-90 halfway between two superchargers suddenly double their range eastwards and westwards. That's significant for someone in, say, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany....

I suppose if Tesla pairs every Supercharger with an HPC that will help some, but 20kW charging isn't 40kW charging.

 

[Norbert]

I think the fact that supercharging for the 60 kWh is only an option, and its price TBD, shows that Tesla believes that even that is a stretch.

And that the message they really intend to get across, is that the 85 kWh pack combined with 90 kW charging, has just reached the level where traveling is acceptable also by common standards.

 

[Mycroft]

The 85kWh pack and the 60kWh pack use different technologies and the "TBD" on the 60kWh pack for supercharging indicates to me that even Tesla isn't all that familiar with the supercharging tech yet.

 

[jcstp]

Curious how this will evolve
can't wait on a decent explanation for why supercharging is so difficult on 40 & 60kw packs!

It's new technology, and Tesla is stretching borders!

 

[Eberhard]

supercharging has nothing to do with the battery back size. the car communicates the current needed to charge. (with 9x10kW charger installed, any of them can be easily switched on and off). Its the same why Tesla deny 3-phase charging. It doesn't fit in their concept and the 40kWh has do be not too attractive. They simple want to make more money with the bigger packs.

 

[EVNow]

supercharging has nothing to do with the battery back size. the car communicates the current needed to charge. (with 9x10kW charger installed, any of them can be easily switched on and off). Its the same why Tesla deny 3-phase charging. It doesn't fit in their concept and the 40kWh has do be not too attractive. They simple want to make more money with the bigger packs.

Exactly - it is purely a business decison (and I think a very bad business decision). Most people wanting a 160 miler will simply not plunk $10k more to go to 230 miler - they will just look for alternatives (sadly, I think a luxury ICE - except for committed EVers who would look at BMW i3 or Infiniti EV).

Tesla needs higher volumes to survive - and they need to make the 160 miler attractive enough.

That is why I think, they will revise this decision, if not now in a year's time, when they figure out they can't meet their 20K sales target.

 

[mnx]

I think i saw it mentioned somewhere else, and I'll mention it again here. If you've got an 85kWh pack and someone with a 40kWh pack is tying up a supercharger while only using it at half capacity you're going to be annoyed to say the least. Hopefully ChaDeMo will be supported, then the lack of super charger support will be a moot point.

- mnx

 

[dsm363]

If Tesla installs HPCs at 80A in the same locations as their super chargers, I think that would be a valid alternative to quick charging of for the 40 kWh pack. Not as good of course but it wouldn't leave them without a good alternative.