Way too early to even consider this. EVs account for less than a fraction of the car population, the administration of this would simply cost more than the revenue collected. Yes we may eventually have to pay our fair share, but right now all the extra "goodies" we get for becoming pioneers and taking risk deserve a pass for awhile. Maybe in about 4-5 years when more of our EVs are on the road, then come up with a plan that is fair and makes sense, not the time for this.
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N.J. bill will start taxing electric cars per mile driven.
- Thread starter yobigd20
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- Energy Environment Policy
NigelM
Recovering Member
Generally taxes are based on income (various income taxes), consumption (sales tax etc) or appraised value (property tax etc.); so is there any other tax levied that is based directly on the amount or frequency of use of an item that the citizen already owns?
Tracking miles driven is the biggest problem in any case. Even using annual inspection there's an issue with taxing people for driving in other states, a good example might be someone who lives in Trenton but does 90% of their driving in Pennsylvania.
The only sensible solution is a flat tax. Although even this raises the nonsensical inefficiency of the federal government incentivizing you to buy an EV while your state government taxes you for using it.
BTW, that's TMC member "MPT" interviewed in the article.
Tracking miles driven is the biggest problem in any case. Even using annual inspection there's an issue with taxing people for driving in other states, a good example might be someone who lives in Trenton but does 90% of their driving in Pennsylvania.
The only sensible solution is a flat tax. Although even this raises the nonsensical inefficiency of the federal government incentivizing you to buy an EV while your state government taxes you for using it.
BTW, that's TMC member "MPT" interviewed in the article.
well, related to how NJ is starting to suck even more , see links below. (the only +1 I have ever given to NJ is that there is no EV sales tax, other than that, this state sucks)
Amazon.com to start collecting sales tax for NJ: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/05/amazoncom_to_begin_collecting.html
and even worse, a FEDERAL BILL is on the way to require SALES TAX TO BE COLLECTED FOR ALL INTERNET PURCHASES FOR EVERY STATE. http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/apr/26/tp-senate-advancing-measure-to-tax-internet/
http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2013/04/time_for_online_sellers_to_col.html
http://www.nj.com/hudson/voices/index.ssf/2012/11/you_santa_and_the_sales_tax.html
:crying::cursing::cursing:
Amazon.com to start collecting sales tax for NJ: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/05/amazoncom_to_begin_collecting.html
and even worse, a FEDERAL BILL is on the way to require SALES TAX TO BE COLLECTED FOR ALL INTERNET PURCHASES FOR EVERY STATE. http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/apr/26/tp-senate-advancing-measure-to-tax-internet/
http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2013/04/time_for_online_sellers_to_col.html
http://www.nj.com/hudson/voices/index.ssf/2012/11/you_santa_and_the_sales_tax.html
:crying::cursing::cursing:
steve841
Active Member
Suddenly, the Tea Party doesnt sound so bad after all .....
That's coming from a mostly Libertarian .... for all my lefty fellow members.
That's coming from a mostly Libertarian .... for all my lefty fellow members.
I'm thinking, eventually, it's going to have to shift. You're not going to be able to tax liquid fuels and expect them to "pay the freight" for the roads. Right now, I pay 38 cent per gallon in total taxes (as I'm in NH). I drove about 20K miles in the past year and average a little over 29MPG and, according to Gas Cubby, used about 700 gallons. Now, some gas I bought in NJ, some in MA, some in VA and PA but the overwhelming majority was in NH. Given that, I paid about $266 in fuel taxes - federal and state.
You can't surcharge electricity - not everyone has an electric car. And even if you did, I could put up solar and bypass the power company and STILL not be contributing "my fair share" towards the roads.
So a $250 surcharge on my registration would cover just about everything. Split the proceeds with the feds 18:20 (the current ratio) and you have roughly $120 for the feds and $130 for the State of NH.
So now - less than $25/mo to support the road network doesn't sound so bad. My cell phone bill is SEVEN times that amount (though I'm covering 3 people with unlimited data plans).
You can't surcharge electricity - not everyone has an electric car. And even if you did, I could put up solar and bypass the power company and STILL not be contributing "my fair share" towards the roads.
So a $250 surcharge on my registration would cover just about everything. Split the proceeds with the feds 18:20 (the current ratio) and you have roughly $120 for the feds and $130 for the State of NH.
So now - less than $25/mo to support the road network doesn't sound so bad. My cell phone bill is SEVEN times that amount (though I'm covering 3 people with unlimited data plans).
PV4EV
Member
The various government think-tanks over here in the UK are forever announcing that GPS GSM devices will need to be fitted to all new cars, superficially to replace road tax. Road tax for an ICE car that has the same performance as a Model S is already at the equivalent of $750 a year.
In 2002 various draconian big-brother laws came into play that enforce car manufacturers to fit ECU's which record various stats, and giving the authorities first rights to retrieve car ECU data. This is usually enforced in the aftermath of bad accidents, but no doubt that law will bent one day to squeeze more tax out of those who transgress speed laws based on rate of change of GPS location … or some such … as well as calculating tax for road miles driven in all vehicle types.
I see a thriving industry in aftermarket devices for nobbling GPS tax units. Although it might be simpler to just wrap tin foil around them, as if going though a long road tunnel … !!
In 2002 various draconian big-brother laws came into play that enforce car manufacturers to fit ECU's which record various stats, and giving the authorities first rights to retrieve car ECU data. This is usually enforced in the aftermath of bad accidents, but no doubt that law will bent one day to squeeze more tax out of those who transgress speed laws based on rate of change of GPS location … or some such … as well as calculating tax for road miles driven in all vehicle types.
I see a thriving industry in aftermarket devices for nobbling GPS tax units. Although it might be simpler to just wrap tin foil around them, as if going though a long road tunnel … !!
There was a substantial resistance to people installing EZPass units in their cars here until the MA Turnpike Authority pledged not to use the info to issue speeding tickets. Tolls are distance-based; your pass is pinged getting onto the Pike and again at the exit. It's simple math to figure out your average rate of speed.... In fairness, the Turnpike Authority has kept to its pledge.
Rest assured that any GPS unit they install will be reasonably nobble-proof.
I support any measure that will be uniform across all cars. Any split-tier system (e.g. mileage-based for EVs, gas-based for cars) leaves the small minority of EV owners at the risk of getting the short side of the deal, with little political clout to rectify any inequity in the rates. If there is a comprehensive plan, the tax hits all voters and, therefore, can't be too draconian.
Rest assured that any GPS unit they install will be reasonably nobble-proof.
I support any measure that will be uniform across all cars. Any split-tier system (e.g. mileage-based for EVs, gas-based for cars) leaves the small minority of EV owners at the risk of getting the short side of the deal, with little political clout to rectify any inequity in the rates. If there is a comprehensive plan, the tax hits all voters and, therefore, can't be too draconian.
That's exaclty how I feel too. A split-tier system can be used to encourage continued gasoline use. A uniform system can't.
That said, if we had an odometer-based tax for funding the roads... we should still have a gas tax to pay for the pollution associated with gasoline.
What I support is a "damage to the road tax"
As many engineers know road damage is a function of weight on tire^4
So you know those big 10 wheel Mack trucks, they are the biggest culprits to road damage, causing 10,000 times more damage than a regular car (remember 8000^4/1000^4 *10 wheels per truck/4 wheels per car)
While a Tesla S is a heavy car, it's causing 1/5200 times the damage of said Mack truck.
The Mack truck gets 5 mpg, and is paying roughly 8.4 cents per mile in NJ.
What does that mean? Well if we are going by road damage, the EV should be paying rounded up 21 cents to use the roads to be fair. That's less than the price of a stamp!
I don't think anyone would have an issue paying 21 cents, but they want the EV driver to may orders of magnitude more than that. Well, that doesn't make much sense.
Also consider that 21 cents as savings for paying regular registration costs and NOT having to get your car inspected. heck, best case, you are saving the state 15 minutes every 2 years, and let's say the person doing the test in making $10/hr- you are saving the state $1.25 every year, or 5 times MORE money than the damage you are causing compared to a Mack truck.
As many engineers know road damage is a function of weight on tire^4
So you know those big 10 wheel Mack trucks, they are the biggest culprits to road damage, causing 10,000 times more damage than a regular car (remember 8000^4/1000^4 *10 wheels per truck/4 wheels per car)
While a Tesla S is a heavy car, it's causing 1/5200 times the damage of said Mack truck.
The Mack truck gets 5 mpg, and is paying roughly 8.4 cents per mile in NJ.
What does that mean? Well if we are going by road damage, the EV should be paying rounded up 21 cents to use the roads to be fair. That's less than the price of a stamp!
I don't think anyone would have an issue paying 21 cents, but they want the EV driver to may orders of magnitude more than that. Well, that doesn't make much sense.
Also consider that 21 cents as savings for paying regular registration costs and NOT having to get your car inspected. heck, best case, you are saving the state 15 minutes every 2 years, and let's say the person doing the test in making $10/hr- you are saving the state $1.25 every year, or 5 times MORE money than the damage you are causing compared to a Mack truck.
Great point about road damage. On the inspection issue, Massachusetts requires inspections for all vehicles, not only for emissions but to ensure the vehicle is safe and has all of the required lights, windows, and other important pieces of the car fully intact and operational. So, no exemption for EVs here!
I would support that too, but you know there is deliberate subsidy for the trucking industry in our roads policy in the US. So that would involve picking a huge fight with the trucking companies. You could probably get all the freight railroads on your side, though! :wink:
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NY has such a "safety inspection" requirement as well.
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