Discussion: All Season Vs Summer Tires

[Knightshade]

I’m

Agreed, which is why I said: “… compromise the performance of your car…”

Right- like you're choosing to do by running summer street tires at the track instead of track tires.

Hilariously you're giving up MORE performance that way than the dude who picks good all-seasons instead of summer tires.

 

[jjrandorin]

Agreed, since all I’ve ever said is for people to do what works for them!

Maybe you didnt intend it to sound that way, but your original statement on this sidebar tire conversation came across like:

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" Hey you know your screwing that up by doing that, right? Well, thats ok thats up to you if you want to mess it up like that"

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Thats why you are getting the responses you are getting on it.

See now that the car has been released it's onto squabbling about tires lmao.

This is just the nature of pretty much all conversation now. Squabble about this, squabble about that.

 

[Zcd1]

Right- like you're choosing to do by running summer street tires at the track instead of track tires.

Hilariously you're giving up MORE performance that way than the dude who picks good all-seasons instead of summer tires.

For the 2-4 track days I do per year, yep, those days I’m compromising performance.
The other 99.4% of my driving time I’m not.
All seasons are a performance compromise 100% of the time.

 

[Zcd1]

Maybe you didnt intend it to sound that way, but your original statement on this sidebar tire conversation came across like:

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" Hey you know your screwing that up by doing that, right? Well, thats ok thats up to you if you want to mess it up like that"

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That isn’t what I said at all. I said all-season tires are a performance compromise - because they are.

I never said “don’t do that”, nor did I suggest anything else about what others should do.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

And I’ve never said anything other than that all seasons are a compromise, and that people can do what they want, including me.

They are a compromise - this isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact.

Run what you like, but don’t pretend that UHP all seasons are anything but a compromise.

The word "Performance" doesn't appear anywhere in your post.
That isn't an opinion. That is a fact.

 

[Knightshade]

For the 2-4 track days I do per year, yep, those days I’m compromising performance.
The other 99.4% of my driving time I’m not.
All seasons are a performance compromise 100% of the time.

Utter and total nonsense my dude.

Unless you're PEDAL TO THE FLOOR braking you're compromising zero braking performance.

Unless you're on the verge of losing traction at likely-not-street-legal speed around a corner you're compromising zero handling performance.

Unless you've magically added a LOT more HP to the car than it came with you're compromising zero acceleration performance.

So the % of your driving you ARE compromising that performance on good all-seasons vs summers is likely less than your 2-4 track days you're doing so running summers instead of track tires.


Look- we get it- everyone compromises performance somewhere--- you've just chosen to do it in a place that's worse than running all seasons instead of summers.

 

[Apprunner]

For the 2-4 track days I do per year, yep, those days I’m compromising performance.
The other 99.4% of my driving time I’m not.
All seasons are a performance compromise 100% of the time.

There is no doubt the summers are much higher performance and feel better in spirited driving. I only drive spiritedly maybe 5% of the time. Most of the time, I'm going through traffic or driving at a steady rate on the highway. Seems silly for me to pay for nice summers when they get used up doing boring things like that. If the summers lasted longer for me, i'd definitely go that way but replacing them every 10-12k miles wasn't pleasant.

 

[Zcd1]

The word "Performance" doesn't appear anywhere in your post.
That isn't an opinion. That is a fact.

Choosing to hamstring the performance of your car in all conditions by running all season tires is your prerogative.

I choose not to do this.

Try again.

 

[Zcd1]

Utter and total nonsense my dude.

Unless you're PEDAL TO THE FLOOR braking you're compromising zero braking performance.

Unless you're on the verge of losing traction at likely-not-street-legal speed around a corner you're compromising zero handling performance.

Unless you've magically added a LOT more HP to the car than it came with you're compromising zero acceleration performance.

So the % of your driving you ARE compromising that performance on good all-seasons vs summers is likely less than your 2-4 track days you're doing so running summers instead of track tires.


Look- we get it- everyone compromises performance somewhere--- you've just chosen to do it in a place that's worse than running all seasons instead of summers.

Conveniently ignoring steering feel and ultimate traction at all times - LOL - okay.

Why buy the Performance version of the car if none of that is important?

Why do mfrs equip their highest-performance cars with UHP summer tires and not all-seasons?

 

[Knightshade]

Conveniently ignoring steering feel

"feel" is not performance.

If it is then I prefer the "feel" of having spent $1000 less than you every 15k miles or so

and ultimate traction at all times - LOL - okay.

Unused traction isn't giving anything up. Like- it's literally not.

The times you USE that extra traction on the street is going to be a smaller % of the time than you use it going to multiple track days a year and choosing to sacrifice performance by using summer tires instead of track tires.

Why buy the Performance version of the car if none of that is important?

The car gets to street-legal speeds exactly as quickly on good all seasons as it does summers.

Why buy the performance version of the car is none of that is important when you actually do need more traction at a track?

Choosing to hamstring the performance of your car at the track is your perogative.

I choose not to do this.


Pro tip dude- when you find yourself in a hole... stop digging.

 

[MODEL+]

Buying a high performance family sedan in itself is like buying all-season tires. Why don't we all just buy a Porsche GT3RS for the track and a Land Rover Defender for when it snows? I'm being funny but it's a similar concept at a smaller scale.


-Danny

 

[Zcd1]

When anyone is ready to discuss or try to refute my original point, which is that all season tires are a performance compromise, I’m happy to continue.

Instead though, people have argued about things I never said, or what they thought I meant or said. That’s what’s hilarious and sad at the same time and THAT’S what the “squabbling” is almost always about, regardless of topic or venue.

 

[Zcd1]

Buying a high performance family sedan in itself is like buying all-season tires. Why don't we all just buy a Porsche GT3RS for the track and a Land Rover Defender for when it snows? I'm being funny but it's a similar concept at a smaller scale.


-Danny

Right, and I’d never argue that a high performance sedan isn’t a performance compromise compared to those - it is, plain and simple, and nobody would suggest that the sedan would keep up with a GTRS or go off-road like a Defender, because it won’t!

 

[mpgxsvcd]

Try again.

For the record I wanted to demonstrate how All Season tires affected the straight line acceleration of my 2022 Model 3 Performance. I went to the track thinking I would run drastically slower than I had with the Michelin PS4S tires of the same size I had before. I ran a 2.88 0-60 mph(rollout subtracted) as opposed to the 2.84 0-60 mph(rollout subtracted) that the PS4S tires did. .04 seconds slower with definitely an acceptable compromise in my book and both of those times are quicker than the advertised time for the new Model 3 Performance on Summer tires.

I am sorry but you are just simply wrong about this. Modern All Season tires can handle the normal spirited driving that people do on the streets and even all out runs on Dragstrip like I did. You are stereotyping an entire class of tire as bad simply because old and cheap "All Season" tires compromised so much performance in the past.

They aren't as bad as you make them sound and if you are driving around city streets at 10/10ths everywhere you go then you are the problem and not the tires.

Modern All Season tires offer "no compromise" efficiency, class leading wear resistance, and still offer any sane driver all of the performance they could ever want on the streets for reasonable prices in most sizes. They also allow you to run the same tire year round even if you get sub freezing temperatures but very little snow or ice like we did this year.

There is a time and a place for All Season tires just like there is a time and a place for Snow, UHP, Summer, All Weather, and Track tires.

@jjrandorin sorry. I submitted my post after you posted the other thread. I was writing my post while you posted yours.

 

[jjrandorin]

No worries.

I mean, the root point of "its a compromise" is true. The issue here in this discussion is first how it was stated (which was) "if you want to hamstring your ......" In that usage, hamstring means " to cripple", and good all seasons are shown to be only 2-4% different, even by the charts provided by the person talking about "hamstring".

If the statement was, instead of hamstring, something like "I run summer tires because I like the best / ultimate performance on my car" vs "if YOU want to HAMSTRING your..."

Thats where the "squabble" comes from, the intimation that someone using good all seasons is "hamstrung" which is the exact word used.

 

[Knightshade]

When anyone is ready to discuss or try to refute my original point, which is that all season tires are a performance compromise, I’m happy to continue.

I already did. Pointing out there's zero measurable performance difference outside of "happens almost never" situations when running good AS tires rather than summer ones.

(Well, except in below freezing weather- where the summer tire comes out far worse than the AS--- also some good AS tires can beat summers in wet braking too but again you typically panic brake nearly never)

In fact such a difference is non-zero less often than the up to 4 days a year you track your car and make a performance compromise by not running track tires.


YOU are giving up MORE actual measurable performance running summers at the track than the folks running good all seasons on the street are.


Now- if you drive like a drunk 17 year old on the street, constantly cornering at double the speed limit, and tailgating everyone such that you're CONSTANTLY full panic braking--- that's another story--- if that's your situation than my only added comment would be to ask where you live so I can avoid ever driving there?

 

[Zcd1]

I am sorry but you are just simply wrong about this.

Please link us to test results showing that Performance all-season tires match or beat the performance (acceleration, cornering grip, braking) of UHP summer tires in anything other than snow.

The non-existence of such test results demonstrate the performance compromise that all season tires represent.

 

[Knightshade]

Please link us to test results showing that Performance all-season tires match or beat the performance (acceleration, cornering grip, braking) of UHP summer tires in anything other than snow.

The non-existence of such test results demonstrate the performance compromise that all season tires represent.

Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4 vs Michelin Pilot Sport 4S

In depth analysis of Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4 vs Michelin Pilot Sport 4S with wet, dry, comfort/noise, snow & ice performances evaluated.

toptirereview.com

They compare those two Michelins directly in 9 tests. The two discussed earlier- the ones that came OEM on the Model 3P for years, and the all-season many replace it with.

The all-season does significantly better in wet braking than the summer tire. A whole 9% better. I eagerly await your apology for implying such results do not exist.

Dry braking the summer wins- but by a mere 1.9%
Wet lap time is a mere 0.7% difference (summer wins)

If one averages wet and dry braking, the summer tire sacrifices performance to the all season... stopping roughly 7% longer overall while only being 0.7% better at lap times.



Again I advise you- when you find yourself in a hole. Stop digging.

 

[Zcd1]

I already did. Pointing out there's zero measurable performance difference outside of "happens almost never" situations when running good AS tires rather than summer ones.

(Well, except in below freezing weather- where the summer tire comes out far worse than the AS--- also some good AS tires can beat summers in wet braking too but again you typically panic brake nearly never)

In fact such a difference is non-zero less often than the up to 4 days a year you track your car and make a performance compromise by not running track tires.


YOU are giving up MORE actual measurable performance running summers at the track than the folks running good all seasons on the street are.


Now- if you drive like a drunk 17 year old on the street, constantly cornering at double the speed limit, and tailgating everyone such that you're CONSTANTLY full panic braking--- that's another story--- if that's your situation than my only added comment would be to ask where you live so I can avoid ever driving there?

It’s long been clear that all you really want to do is argue, so we’ll leave it at that.
Meantime, please be sure not to drive anywhere near me in case you can’t stop in time to avoid a $15K accident because you saved $700 on tires.

 

[Knightshade]

It’s long been clear that all you really want to do is argue, so we’ll leave it at that.

Naah, all I want to do is correct your factually wrong claims- with sources and math.

Sorry it upsets you so much.

Was it pointing out you make larger performance compromises not running track tires that did it?

Or debunking your claim there's no performance tests outside of snow showing an all season beating the comparable summer tire?

Meantime, please be sure not to drive anywhere near me in case you can’t stop in time to avoid a $15K accident because you saved $700 on tires.

On the contrary- since I'm running A/S4s instead of PS4s tires I will on average stop better than the sucker who pays 2-3x as much for tires as I do.

I'll stop 9% shorter in wet.

And while I will stop 1.9% longer in dry, since I don't drive like a drunk 17 year old who tailgates everyone that won't be relevant to accident rate.