Million EVs by 2015... What's an EV?

[EVNow]

Even prious is classified as HEV - Hybrid Electric Vehicle. GM continues to say volt is an EV, even though the ICE can directly drive the wheels. Karma being a true serial hybrid, is closer to being an EV.

 

[suxxer]

t the end of the day, the Volt and Karma are electric cars with the addition an onboard generator.

Sure, they are electric cars - but not full electric cars. But that's not the point. The point is that Fisker gives people the impression that the car is purely electric (and doesn't require gasoline). And many will be disappointed when they learn the truth behind it.

Personally I don't like FEVs more than the PHEVs or whatever. But you just have to be honest to your future customers and not try to advertise something that just isn't there. The question that inevitably arises now is why do they advertise something else than before?

They use to write something like "manufacturer of premium plug-in hybrid electric vehicles" and not "the first and only true electric vehicle with extended range..." ...

 

[qwk]

Is it really a lie though? When driving a Volt or Karma further than the range their batteries alone will take them, the batteries are charged using a gasoline-powered engine. The car still runs on electricity. What do you call Tesla Roadster when its batteries are charged using electricity produced from burning coal? Is the Roadster no longer a true "electric car" when it's not charged using current from 100% renewable energy sources? No, of course not; the Roadster is still an electric car wherever you get the charge from.

At the end of the day, the Volt and Karma are electric cars with the addition an onboard generator. You don't have to use the generator if you don't want to -- just never put gas in the car and only drive it with its batteries charged directly from a wall socket rather than with the onboard generator. The Roadster is very much like the other two except that it does not have any way of generating it's own electricity and it has a larger battery pack. Now personally, I like the Roadster more than the other two and that's what I bought. But it costs well over twice what the Volt costs, for example, and I know a lot of folks who do want to drive electric but can't affort the Roadster or Model S will buy Volts and almost exclusively drive them without using the generator. I'm not going to slam these people or say their cars are not really electric, because I don't think that's the point. They got a smaller battery pack, and they have the option of burning gas from time to time in order to make their own electricity when they need it.

The coal argument is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the volt/karma have an onboard ICE while the roadster/leaf do not.

You simply cannot just avoid putting gasoline in a volt/karma as they were/are designed to run on BOTH electricity and fossil fuels.
The roadster/leaf were designed to run on pure electricity.

A hybrid is a mix of electic/ICE power, which is the category volt/karma fall into.

 

[donauker]

You simply cannot just avoid putting gasoline in a volt/karma as they were/are designed to run on BOTH electricity and fossil fuels.
The roadster/leaf were designed to run on pure electricity.

A hybrid is a mix of electic/ICE power, which is the category volt/karma fall into.

And here is exactly the reason that GM and Fisker are using the extended range EV term.

You actually can drive these vehicles as all electric vehicles for months on end without using any fossil fuel. The ICE is not needed for normal operation or for climate control. If you stay within the range of the battery they operate on battery only and are NOT operating as a hybrid because only one source of power is used.

 

[qwk]

And here is exactly the reason that GM and Fisker are using the extended range EV term.

You actually can drive these vehicles as all electric vehicles for months on end without using any fossil fuel. The ICE is not needed for normal operation or for climate control. If you stay within the range of the battery they operate on battery only and are NOT operating as a hybrid because only one source of power is used.

You must have missed the part that in very cold temperatures the ICE comes on to warm the batteries.

There is no way, no how that you could just keep 0 gas in the Volt and go about your merry way just in electric mode, this makes it a hybrid.

 

[Lloyd]

And here is exactly the reason that GM and Fisker are using the extended range EV term.

You actually can drive these vehicles as all electric vehicles for months on end without using any fossil fuel. The ICE is not needed for normal operation or for climate control. If you stay within the range of the battery they operate on battery only and are NOT operating as a hybrid because only one source of power is used.

You realize that these terms have been invented and used by GM and others because they are threatened by Tesla!

 

[qwk]

You realize that these terms have been invented and used by GM and others because they are threatened by Tesla!

Very threatened. If Tesla had the capital of the big 3, there would be no big 3.

They have a very primitive business model that is only extended by taxpayer bailouts, cash for clunker schemes etc.

 

[Tommy]

You must have missed the part that in very cold temperatures the ICE comes on to warm the batteries.

Here is the Volt owners forum link that discusses this "attribute" of the Volt: Engine turning on for Temperature
There are other posts on this subject as well throughout the forum, however I found this one amusing as the OP complained about not even being able to to out on a simple errand to get milk without the ICE turning on.

 

[donauker]

You must have missed the part that in very cold temperatures the ICE comes on to warm the batteries.

There is no way, no how that you could just keep 0 gas in the Volt and go about your merry way just in electric mode, this makes it a hybrid.

No, I didn't miss that. If you look back a few posts you will see that I stated that in a prior post.

There are millions of people for which the car will never get cold enough for that to be a factor and for the major portion of the year that will not be a factor for most of the rest.

So now the definition of a hybrid is the fact that it contains some gas? Even if it's not used? So if I carry a container of gas and a honda generator in my Roadster is it a hybrid?

I stand by my statement, that while operating within the range of the battery, the Volt or the Fisker it is not operating in hybrid mode but is operating as a BEV.

 

[qwk]

No, I didn't miss that. If you look back a few posts you will see that I stated that in a prior post.

There are millions of people for which the car will never get cold enough for that to be a factor and for the major portion of the year that will not be a factor for most of the rest.

So now the definition of a hybrid is the fact that it contains some gas? Even if it's not used? So if I carry a container of gas and a honda generator in my Roadster is it a hybrid?

I stand by my statement, that while operating within the range of the battery, the Volt or the Fisker it is not operating in hybrid mode but is operating as a BEV.

I don't follow your reasoning. You are just making excuses.

If you have a car that CANNOT be used in electric mode 100% of the time IF the user wishes, it's a hybrid. Pretty simple

 

[stopcrazypp]

Maybe the correct term we're looking for is FEV (Full electriv vehicle). EV (electric vehicle) and "electric car" are interchangeably used.



Latest Press Release from Fisker's Homepage:

SHANGHAI (Dec. 15, 2010) Fisker Automotive, the California manufacturer of premium electric vehicles with extended range, has partnered with the China Grand Automotive Group, the number one passenger car trader in China, to have its vehicles distributed, marketed and serviced in the region.

No word about PHEV / Hybrid.... just "with extended rage" :scared: Call it whatever you want. I call it a dishonest lie.

Again notice the careful terminology. "electric vehicle", which technically is correct. GM uses "electric car" though and they explicitly say not to call it a hybrid. Fisker so far hasn't reached that point yet. Both of them may be trying to weasel in and tie the car more to electric cars, but GM definitely is more severe (and also the leader too in created the "extend range" term).

 

[vfx]

And here is exactly the reason that GM and Fisker are using the extended range EV term.

You actually can drive these vehicles as all electric vehicles for months on end without using any fossil fuel. The ICE is not needed for normal operation or for climate control. If you stay within the range of the battery they operate on battery only and are NOT operating as a hybrid because only one source of power is used.

Maybe the way to look at is range-fuel-choice. In a Volt, the only way to drive 100 miles at once is to burn gasoline. In a LEAF or Roadster you can "burn" coal or NG or nukes or the sun or hydro, etc waves, etc., wind, etc....

Full electric has the flexibility for all of it's power to come from more choices than just stinky foreign gasoline that gets pumped into a beautiful Fisker. It's like meeting a hot girl who turns our to be a mean girl.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So now the definition of a hybrid is the fact that it contains some gas? Even if it's not used? So if I carry a container of gas and a honda generator in my Roadster is it a hybrid?

No, the SAE definition of hybrid is a vehicle with two or more energy storage systems (ESS) on board, both of which provide propulsive power. That means in your example, it depends on if the gas is providing propulsive power (via the generator) and also if the generator is permanent (if it isn't, then as soon as you remove that generator, your car isn't a hybrid). That definition definitely includes the Volt, Fisker and all other PHEVs and HEVs. Notice it doesn't include electric cars (they only have the battery as an ESS) and conventional gas cars (they only have gas providing propulsive force, the battery is only for accessories). It's a very neat definition.

 

[Jaff]

Practicality rules!

If so, then to accurately describe their BEV performance, some standards need to be applied to their EV (only) range.

Casting aside GM / Fisker's Madison Avenue spin, I would purport that the term Extended Range EV be replaced with "Substandard Range EV" with the standard being an EV range of 100 miles.

Remember, just because the Volt & Fisker can operate as EV's, does not mean that they can operate as a practical EV's...I would consider 100 EV miles as the bare minimum to declare an EV practical..

If a vehicle is not practical, well...

No, I didn't miss that. If you look back a few posts you will see that I stated that in a prior post.

There are millions of people for which the car will never get cold enough for that to be a factor and for the major portion of the year that will not be a factor for most of the rest.

So now the definition of a hybrid is the fact that it contains some gas? Even if it's not used? So if I carry a container of gas and a honda generator in my Roadster is it a hybrid?

I stand by my statement, that while operating within the range of the battery, the Volt or the Fisker it is not operating in hybrid mode but is operating as a BEV.

 

[donauker]

Yes practicality rules, and what is practical for one person may not be practical for another.

In my 3.5 year of experience driving an EV, on most of the occasions when 40 miles of range was not enough than 100 miles would also not be enough.

I assume you are aware of the statistics that show that between 70% and 80% of the miles driven are vehicle driving less then 40 miles a day?

 

[Jaff]

Completely aware of it...however, until I drive a Volt (in the manner I drive...highway speed) and see for a fact that I can in fact acheive the quoted 40 EV miles, I will have to compare it to my few months experience of driving the Roadster and 5 years of experience driving Lexus Hybrids...the mileage will be less than 40...I'm willing to bet substantially less if you're driving at highway speeds.

If this is correct, a much smaller number of these 70-80% of trips under 40 miles will be serviced by 100% electric miles.

Time and consumer satisfaction / dissatisfaction will tell.

Yes practicality rules, and what is practical for one person may not be practical for another.

In my 3.5 year of experience driving an EV, on most of the occasions when 40 miles of range was not enough than 100 miles would also not be enough.

I assume you are aware of the statistics that show that between 70% and 80% of the miles driven are vehicle driving less then 40 miles a day?

 

[Takumi]

So now the definition of a hybrid is the fact that it contains some gas? Even if it's not used? So if I carry a container of gas and a honda generator in my Roadster is it a hybrid?

I stand by my statement, that while operating within the range of the battery, the Volt or the Fisker it is not operating in hybrid mode but is operating as a BEV.

I seriously do not understand why you are trying so hard to defend your stance. We are not saying hybrids are bad. They have their place.

Hypothetically, if you were looking for fertilizer and I sell you *sugar*, would you buy it? No? Well, is it because there's more to it than that? Is it because fertilizer is cleaner and broken down to more basic elements?

*Sigh* I'm just pissed that I've been promised my EV would be here since the EV1. Now that they've taken my tax dollars they're gonna try and sell me *sugar* instead of educating the rest of the country. Why bring down the educated when you can elevate the uneducated? Wouldn't you be more productive that way?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt
VOLT is a HYBRID!
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/a...e_chevy_volt_an_ev_or_a_hybrid_who_cares.html

The argument goes like this. When the Volt is driving hard, say, over 70 miles per hour or it’s climbing hills, the gasoline engine will directly power the car’s second electric motor, which then turns the wheels. This came as a surprise because GM has billed the car as an electric vehicle that uses the gasoline engine to charge the battery. The company has said that the car’s electric motors draw power straight from the battery. That gasoline engine is only there to charge the battery. GM’s engineers didn’t reveal until recently that the engine can power a secondary electric motor that turns the wheels. Critics say this new revelation makes the Volt a hybrid, because the Prius does drive in a similar way. GM counters that there is no direct mechanical linkage from the gasoline engine to the wheels. So it’s an electric vehicle.

GM's FUD flinging. It's a SERIES HYBRID!

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2010/10/the-great-chevy-volt-hybrid-mishap-explained.html

It's a similar notion for the Volt, though the car is designed for something else entirely: to be gas-free for about 40 miles (roughly) of electric-only driving, not to get the lowest possible mpg rating in sustained driving, as conventional hybrids are. (To that end, the engineers estimate the Volt's good for 35 to 40 mpg in range-extending mode, once the engine starts up, and that's nothing to get excited about.) It seems to me the detractors would be more satisfied if the gas engine didn't power the wheels at all and the car got 25 mpg with the engine running.

As an electric car it loses to the Leaf, as a hybrid it loses to the Prius. Hence I call it *sugar*! Better bring back your EV1 and the rest of the other concepts that others are using against you, GM!
*update* More supporting evidence unearthed by vfx http://www.plugincars.com/chevy-volt-barely-makes-2011-list-top-12-greenest-vehicles-106816.html

IIRC, the feeling for when Toyota came up with their concept HSD was that there were two types of hybrids - series and parallel. Back then Toyota's was advanced in that was both and they have proven that in time by showing the world in it's MPG prowess.

http://www.hybridcarblog.com/lies-chevy-volt-was-always-a-hybrid/
VOLT is a HYBRID!

Now for the government...
Have they ever cut their own pay?

Who's the most successful US born businessman/woman today? Because they should be written in as President.

Gamers know that if you want to take over a region, you can do it in three ways. Military, Economy, or Religion. U.S. is in danger in two of those.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY79KbCptTo

 

[Nik]

I seriously do not understand why you are trying so hard to defend your stance.
...
Gamers know that if you want to take over a region, you can do it in three ways. Military, Economy, or Religion. U.S. is in danger in two of those.

Get a room, would you?

 

[donauker]

I seriously do not understand why you are trying so hard to defend your stance. We are not saying hybrids are bad. They have their place.
...
Hence I call it *sugar*!
...
Gamers know that if you want to take over a region, you can do it in three ways. Military, Economy, or Religion. U.S. is in danger in two of those.

Seriously! Wow! Who is trying hard?

Sure I know the Volt is a hybrid. But I also don't have any problem with the EREV definition because I consider it beneficial to identify a vehicle that can operate as an EV for months at a time in a different fashion than one that can't for even a single short trip to the grocery store.

Personally I am not interested in owning a Volt but I am interested in seeing as many electric miles driven as possible and this being a free country and all I am happy to see the Volt being available to those that finds it practical for there own personal use.

What I do find very interesting is that based on scheduled production numbers, it is highly likely that before a year is up the Volt will be responsible for more electric miles than Tesla and in the years after that it very unlikely that they will ever be matched by Tesla unless Tesla has a very successful low cost model.

 

[benji4]

Maybe the way to look at is range-fuel-choice. In a Volt, the only way to drive 100 miles at once is to burn gasoline. In a LEAF or Roadster you can "burn" coal or NG or nukes or the sun or hydro, etc waves, etc., wind, etc....

Full electric has the flexibility for all of it's power to come from more choices than just stinky foreign gasoline that gets pumped into a beautiful Fisker. It's like meeting a hot girl who turns our to be a mean girl.

Eric, I think you are onto something there. This is a pretty good compromise actually... there could be a table like this that shows what you can call your car depending on how far you drive:

Car/Miles 40 80 120 160 200
Roadster.. EV EV EV EV EV
Model S... EV EV EV EV EV
LEAF....... EV EV * * *
iMiev....... EV * * * *
Volt........ EV Gas Gas Gas Gas
Karma..... EV Gas Gas Gas Gas

* = hitchhiker.

So basically if you drive your Volt or Karma 40 miles or less, fine, you can call your car an EV. Go over that, and you can't call it and EV anymore. You are now buring gasoline to power your car, and you are actually getting quite a bit worse milage than a Prius at this point.... damn, may as well just let the gas engine power the wheels at that point as it would probably be more efficient! But anyway, as long as Volt and Karma drivers promise not to drive more than 40 miles -- okay, they can call their car an EV then.