Medicare for all - fixing US healthcare

[eevee-fan]

Hm... I guess living in Wuhan, maybe they have no health insurance or coverage that does not cover overseas travel? (removed erroneous comment on Canada's national health insurance, thx Webeevdrivers for correction)

Covid-19 quarantine leads to surprise medical bills for US family

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Hm... I guess living in Wuhan, maybe they have no health insurance or coverage that does not cover overseas travel? Canada's system does not provide coverage outside the country...

Covid-19 quarantine leads to surprise medical bills for US family

That’s not quite right. Canada health covers you anywhere in the world AS LONG AS THE COST DOES NOT EXCEED WHAT IT COSTS IN CANADA and specifically the province. People in Canada buy travel insurance to cover the difference in cost between what it costs in Canada and the country you are visiting. For example, procedures in Spain cost similar to what they cost in Canada. Therefore it is questionable wether you need travel insurance when travelling in Spain. A heart bypass stint procedure would be similar in Spain but could be as much as eight times as much in the USA. That’s why Canadians buy travel insurance when travelling to the USA but really don’t need it when travelling to Spain. Keep receipts and submit to your provincial health care. They will reimburse what the treatment costs in Canada.

We are well travelled and have been down this road. Essentially if you buy travel insurance this is exactly what the insurance company does. You give them the bill and they collect from the province and then pay the difference...after they negotiate the final amount with the foreign health care provider.

 

[EV-Tiger]

... until you change job or lose your job due to a medical condition then get rejected for new insurance. Oh well, so sad, huh?

Actually healthcare costs nationwide are MUCH higher, but when Obamacare was enacted they leveled off for a few years. The increases resumed as Obamacare was dismantled.

Perhaps you can pick the point on this graph where you feel Obamacare caused healthcare costs to go up.

I point to a plethora of evidence, including a rigorous 2014 Brookings study, showing that Obamacare significantly increased premiums.

Overwhelming Evidence That Obamacare Caused Premiums To Increase Substantially

Overwhelming Evidence That Obamacare Caused Premiums To Increase Substantially

 

[nwdiver]

I point to a plethora of evidence, including a rigorous 2014 Brookings study, showing that Obamacare significantly increased premiums.

Overwhelming Evidence That Obamacare Caused Premiums To Increase Substantially

Overwhelming Evidence That Obamacare Caused Premiums To Increase Substantially

Let's be SUPER-generous and make the assumption all that is true. That's all the more reason to not to compromise with silly right wing ideas (The ACA was largely copied from Romney-Care) and just do single payer (which is what most people wanted anyway).

So.... I assume you're for medicare for all then?


As an aside... if we want to be accurate instead of simply generous you need to compare apples to apples. The key phrase is 'ACA compliant'; Yeah... if someone went from buying $50/mo insurance to $150/mo insurance because the $50/mo was more of a cut-rate scam while the $150/mo insurance (still a bit of a scam) at least provided some degree of actual coverage. Did their cost really go up or are they just buying 'real' insurance now?

 

[EV-Tiger]

Healthcare at the DMV is better than unaffordable healthcare. Even granting your inaccurate statement is true it was STILL unaffordable before Obamacare and not getting any better. Anything is better than the mess we have now or had before. Just throw a dart at a Map. Norway? Sounds good. UK? Sign me up. France? I'd vote for that in a heartbeat. Germany? ok... Pick one.

The US is becoming a 'developed country' in name only. It's pathetic. There's healthcare organizations normally providing free clinics in refugee camps setting up clinics in Tennessee. And there are so many people needing help they have to turn some away.

Pick your Bernie;
Bernie in 1988: Universal healthcare will “bankrupt the nation.”
Bernie in 2020: Universal healthcare is free!

 

[nwdiver]

Pick your Bernie;
Bernie in 1988: Universal healthcare will “bankrupt the nation.”
Bernie in 2020: Universal healthcare is free!

Throw a dart at a map. Whatever developed country the dart lands on I pick that one. Norway? Fine with me. Germany? Sounds Good. Pick one. Any one. If literally everyone else can make this work I'm sure we can too. Pick your country and let's fix the disaster in the US

I'm under no illusion this will be 'free'. I'm fully aware that every $ I make over ~$10M/yr will be heavily taxed. I'm 150% ok with that Also... we have the highest healthcare cost in the world per capita while achieving terrible results. So the overall costs will almost certainly go down. Let's fix this mess.

 

[reddy]

I point to a plethora of evidence, including a rigorous 2014 Brookings study, showing that Obamacare significantly increased premiums.

Overwhelming Evidence That Obamacare Caused Premiums To Increase Substantially

Tigger, you just aren't getting it.

There can be a disconnect between healthcare costs vs cost of insurance premiums.

Premiums = Covered Healthcare costs + administrative overhead + insurance company profits.

The actual total cost of healthcare was flat during the initial years of Obamacare.

What we found was that Obamacare became the scapegoat for a lot of bad behavior on the part of insurance companies, and record profits. They simply blamed their rate increases on Obamacare, and the Tiggers of the world fell for it.

Additionally Obamacare mandated full coverage for preventative health like immunizations, colonoscopies, mammograms, that weren't in insurance plans before, as well as eliminated the 'pre-existing conditions' clauses. So MORE services were covered, which inflated the premium cost but reduced out of pocket costs for preventative services.

However, looking at the long term trend, COSTS were contained until the Obamacare dismantling started.

 

[EV-Tiger]

Tigger, you just aren't getting it.

There can be a disconnect between healthcare costs vs cost of insurance premiums.

Premiums = Covered Healthcare costs + administrative overhead + insurance company profits.

The actual total cost of healthcare was flat during the initial years of Obamacare.

What we found was that Obamacare became the scapegoat for a lot of bad behavior on the part of insurance companies, and record profits. They simply blamed their rate increases on Obamacare, and the Tiggers of the world fell for it.

Additionally Obamacare mandated full coverage for preventative health like immunizations, colonoscopies, mammograms, that weren't in insurance plans before, as well as eliminated the 'pre-existing conditions' clauses. So MORE services were covered, which inflated the premium cost but reduced out of pocket costs for preventative services.

However, looking at the long term trend, COSTS were contained until the Obamacare dismantling started.

Let me provide facts to counter your made up assertions. First, Obamacare did nothing to reduce medical costs (see link). Second, OCare is still the law of the land, but that may change in 2021 when the Supreme Court is expected to rule on it (see link). Trump did repeal OCare's tax on the poor. And yes, the Tiggers of the world always believe in facts.

“While the ACA succeeded in creating a situation in which nearly the entire population either has, or can get, health insurance, it did nothing to reduce the underlying cost of medical care,” said Ed Haislmaier, a health-care policy expert at the Heritage Foundation.
How the Affordable Care Act transformed our health-care system

Supreme Court to hear ObamaCare appeal
Supreme Court to hear ObamaCare appeal

 

[nwdiver]

Let me provide facts to counter your made up assertions. First, Obamacare did nothing to reduce medical costs (see link). Second, OCare is still the law of the land, but that may change in 2021 when the Supreme Court is expected to rule on it (see link). Trump did repeal OCare's tax on the poor. And yes, the Tiggers of the world always believe in facts.

“While the ACA succeeded in creating a situation in which nearly the entire population either has, or can get, health insurance, it did nothing to reduce the underlying cost of medical care,” said Ed Haislmaier, a health-care policy expert at the Heritage Foundation.
How the Affordable Care Act transformed our health-care system

Supreme Court to hear ObamaCare appeal
Supreme Court to hear ObamaCare appeal

Did you pick your county? Sweden? France? UK? Cleary what the US is doing simply does. not. work. for most people...

 

[EV-Tiger]

Did you pick your county? Sweden? France? UK? Cleary what the US is doing simply does. not. work. for most people...

View attachment 517196

If you actually read any of my comments, you would quickly come to the logical conclusion that I agree with you in that Obamacare is a disaster (note your bankruptcy graph) and that something needs to be done (that doesn't increase medical costs (which OCare did) or bankrupt the country).

 

[nwdiver]

If you actually read any of my comments, you would quickly come to the logical conclusion that I agree with you in that Obamacare is a disaster (note your bankruptcy graph) and that something needs to be done (that doesn't increase medical costs (which OCare did) or bankrupt the country).

So.... medicare for all? Single payer decreases costs everywhere it's been implemented. Pick a country... any developed country. Canada? Which system should be adopt? The ACA was only a disaster relative to other developed counties because it was a compromise with ideologues. It was an improvement compared to the catastrophe that existed before. Have you picked a country yet? Taiwan? Italy? Lots to choose from and they're ALL better than the mess we have.

And... the ACA was successful in reducing the number of medical bankruptcies. Not that I expect your worldview to be influenced by reality.....

 

[Leeclanual]

guess its time to pack up and move to one of those “better” countries with socialized medicine.

I’m personally going to put my effort towards getting 4 more years of the current administration... allow them the time necessary to unscrew the mess of the ACA and stopping the current efforts for single payer medical care.

 

[EV-Tiger]

So.... medicare for all? Single payer decreases costs everywhere it's been implemented. Pick a country... any developed country. Canada? Which system should be adopt? The ACA was only a disaster relative to other developed counties because it was a compromise with ideologues. It was an improvement compared to the catastrophe that existed before. Have you picked a country yet? Taiwan? Italy? Lots to choose from and they're ALL better than the mess we have.

And... the ACA was successful in reducing the number of medical bankruptcies. Not that I expect your worldview to be influenced by reality.....

View attachment 517231

Your graph is very misleading and factually incorrect as it relates to all (not just medical cost induced) bankruptcies. Again, your graph shows ALL bankruptcies. Your linked article even stated "The many experts we interviewed also pointed to two other contributing factors: an improving economy and changes to bankruptcy laws in 2005 that made it more difficult and costly to file."

Now, for a real study that examined medical cost induced bankruptcies due to Obamacare. Not that I would expect YOOOOOUR worldview to change due to a Feb 2019 study that showed ...

Affordable Care Act Hasn’t Reduced Bankruptcies: Study
Affordable Care Act Hasn’t Reduced Bankruptcies: Study

 

[Big Dog]

That’s not quite right. Canada health covers you anywhere in the world AS LONG AS THE COST DOES NOT EXCEED WHAT IT COSTS IN CANADA and specifically the province. People in Canada buy travel insurance to cover the difference in cost between what it costs in Canada and the country you are visiting. For example, procedures in Spain cost similar to what they cost in Canada. Therefore it is questionable wether you need travel insurance when travelling in Spain. A heart bypass stint procedure would be similar in Spain but could be as much as eight times as much in the USA. That’s why Canadians buy travel insurance when travelling to the USA but really don’t need it when travelling to Spain. Keep receipts and submit to your provincial health care. They will reimburse what the treatment costs in Canada.

We are well travelled and have been down this road. Essentially if you buy travel insurance this is exactly what the insurance company does. You give them the bill and they collect from the province and then pay the difference...after they negotiate the final amount with the foreign health care provider.

fwiw: current US Medicare (for the elderly) does not cover International travel. Folks can get some international coverage by purchasing a separate travel policy; some Medicare Supplements may offer limited international coverage, but a Supplement is presumably not covered by Medicare For All.

 

[Big Dog]

Did you pick your county? Sweden? France? UK? Cleary what the US is doing simply does. not. work. for most people...

View attachment 517196

nwdriver, I've always been a big fan of your posts but this is one data point which requires a lot of nuance, something politicians lack. When digging thru US bankruptcies, yes, a half mill do have unpaid medical bills, but that is not necessarily the cause (the "because" in your chart title) of the bankruptcy. Those BK claims also have a ton of other unpaid bills, credit cards, back rent due, etc. Moreover, some/many have lost their jobs, experience an auto accident and become disabled and cannot work. So no doubt unpaid medical bills can be daunting, it ain't as clear as the talking points make it out to be.

And the graph in #211 is just Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics. You could just as easily remove all references to the ACA in that graph and plot employment & GDP growth after the big mortgage crisis. In other words folks started working again so bankruptcies dropped. (Doh!)

 

[reddy]

Let me provide facts to counter your made up assertions. First, Obamacare did nothing to reduce medical costs (see link). Second, OCare is still the law of the land, but that may change in 2021 when the Supreme Court is expected to rule on it (see link). Trump did repeal OCare's tax on the poor. And yes, the Tiggers of the world always believe in facts.

“While the ACA succeeded in creating a situation in which nearly the entire population either has, or can get, health insurance, it did nothing to reduce the underlying cost of medical care,” said Ed Haislmaier, a health-care policy expert at the Heritage Foundation.
How the Affordable Care Act transformed our health-care system

Supreme Court to hear ObamaCare appeal
Supreme Court to hear ObamaCare appeal

Yep, your facts aren't actually facts.

The Heritage Foundation first ISN"T a healthcare policy analyst.

It's a far right wing political advocacy shop. Its SOOOOO far extreme right wing we have trouble mapping it.

Suggestion: Post the actual costs , by GDP. See that they flattened. Don't post extremist BS here.

Heritage Foundation - Media Bias/Fact Check

 

[EV-Tiger]

Yep, your facts aren't actually facts.

The Heritage Foundation first ISN"T a healthcare policy analyst.

It's a far right wing political advocacy shop. Its SOOOOO far extreme right wing we have trouble mapping it.

Suggestion: Post the actual costs , by GDP. See that they flattened. Don't post extremist BS here.

View attachment 517279

Heritage Foundation - Media Bias/Fact Check

Nice circles!

 

[nwdiver]

nwdriver, I've always been a big fan of your posts but this is one data point which requires a lot of nuance, something politicians lack. When digging thru US bankruptcies, yes, a half mill do have unpaid medical bills, but that is not necessarily the cause (the "because" in your chart title) of the bankruptcy. Those BK claims also have a ton of other unpaid bills, credit cards, back rent due, etc. Moreover, some/many have lost their jobs, experience an auto accident and become disabled and cannot work. So no doubt unpaid medical bills can be daunting, it ain't as clear as the talking points make it out to be.

And the graph in #211 is just Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics. You could just as easily remove all references to the ACA in that graph and plot employment & GDP growth after the big mortgage crisis. In other words folks started working again so bankruptcies dropped. (Doh!)

Point is that unexpected medical expenses are BY FAR the #1 cause of personal bankruptcies in the US.

Point is that this doesn’t occur in ANY developed country.

Point is we can/should fix this embarrassment.

Point is that NO ONE should go bankrupt due to illness or injury. This doesn’t happen in civilized countries. The US should join the civilized and developed world.

 

[eevee-fan]

Bye bye ACA after the election, hope we have Medicare For All to take over. Otherwise, perhaps karma will have those against ACA fall in the group that end up in medical bankruptcy. Perhaps the only way to make the point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...e08a62-5c90-11ea-b014-4fafa866bb81_story.html

 

[eevee-fan]

Not just a problem in Canada, same everywhere.