Looking for analysis on the California Public Utilities commission's rate chane

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Frankly the shift from 15¢ to 8¢ seems entirely reasonable to me; 8¢ is in line with what other renewable energy sources are paid and still almost double what a fossil-fired plant receives.

I still wish that the utilities would charge all residential customers a flat fee for grid access (with the fee linked only to the panel size, i.e. the maximum draw on the system). But that would expose the cross-subsidies already in the system, where high-use residential customers (who are presumably richer) pay a disproportionate share of the residential sector's bill.

I'm not sure how I feel about it in general. I think it's pretty crumby if someone is forced to a TOU plan. You could get charged 30+c/kWh for anything you use on-peak, but only paid 8c/kWh for whatever you export on-peak.

It's not as bad as flat rate. Still, you're replacing generation and a big chunk of transmission. If you're paid less than the market cost at the time for generation plus some fraction of the transmission cost, that's unfair.

SCE charges at least 5.3c/kWh for delivery and 9.1c/kWh for energy. If they aren't reimbursing customers for the full cost of energy at 9.1c/kWh and a substantial fraction of distribution, lets say 4c/kWh, since the excess you're delivering to your immediate neighbors shouldn't cost too much to move down the street, then that ~5c/kWh difference must be going someplace else. If some of it's going to SCE's profit margin, that's a money grab, plain and simple.

Edit - Kind of OT, but can I only edit my posts within a specific window? I was going to correct the typo in my last post, but there's no edit button available.

 

[aesculus]

Not sure how SCE works but PG&E does not pay you anything until the true up period (right now about 4 c/kWh) at year end. But what they do is to credit you that same rate that you would consume at. So if you would be consuming at 20c/hWh, you would get the same amount of credit applied. And since the TOU's are also tiered, your rates (credits) get higher and higher the more you produce each month. At the start of the billing period your tiered rate drops to baseline and you climb back up again, just like you would do with consumption.

So these TOU and Tiered rates are really hard to figure out and you have to wait until your monthly bill to really see how well you did or did not do. Admittingly you could game the system if you wanted and took a hit on your lifestyle maximizing TOU returns at various tiers. And I am not sure how long all of this will last anyway as the rate game is constantly in play.

 

[macpacheco]

What would happen if 4 or more neighbours shared a PowerPack, with cables running directly between their houses ? Can a PowerPack even be installed at residential users ? Solar panels themselves are already at grid parity with subsidies, but those are going away, and adding storage costs on top greatly rollback grid parity math.
I love this entire discussion. PG&E is a business, their job is to make money. One interesting response might be if solar city could build independent microgrids with one or more PowerPacks at the core of each microgrid and kiss PG&E goodbuy (assuming there are enough consumers willing to jump in), only purchasing from the grid at negotiated off peak hours.
The name of the game should be competition. But having two or more electricity distributors isn't a usual arrangement.

My hope is PowerPack cost will drop by 25% until 2020 and by 50% until 2025. And Powerwall will jump from sub 10kWh configurations to 20kWh at discharge rates compatible with no compromise electricity usage (much like a Tesla is a no compromise EV that is superior to ICE in most ways).

But the fact is Tesla Energy needs an order of magnitude drop in costs to break that hump. Assuming a PowerPack lasts 10 years, that's US$ 208 / month. And a daily cycle powerwall @ US$ 25 / month price. And in both cases inverter/installation costs extra, assuming you can order directly from Tesla avoiding resale margins.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Not sure how SCE works but PG&E does not pay you anything until the true up period (right now about 4 c/kWh) at year end. But what they do is to credit you that same rate that you would consume at. So if you would be consuming at 20c/hWh, you would get the same amount of credit applied. And since the TOU's are also tiered, your rates (credits) get higher and higher the more you produce each month. At the start of the billing period your tiered rate drops to baseline and you climb back up again, just like you would do with consumption.

So these TOU and Tiered rates are really hard to figure out and you have to wait until your monthly bill to really see how well you did or did not do. Admittingly you could game the system if you wanted and took a hit on your lifestyle maximizing TOU returns at various tiers. And I am not sure how long all of this will last anyway as the rate game is constantly in play.

That's not too bad. Do you have the option of banking your excess generation instead of getting paid for it?

The changes in rates are frustrating though, especially given the payback period required for an investment like PV.

What would happen if 4 or more neighbours shared a PowerPack, with cables running directly between their houses ? Can a PowerPack even be installed at residential users ? Solar panels themselves are already at grid parity with subsidies, but those are going away, and adding storage costs on top greatly rollback grid parity math.
I love this entire discussion. PG&E is a business, their job is to make money. One interesting response might be if solar city could build independent microgrids with one or more PowerPacks at the core of each microgrid and kiss PG&E goodbuy (assuming there are enough consumers willing to jump in), only purchasing from the grid at negotiated off peak hours.
The name of the game should be competition. But having two or more electricity distributors isn't a usual arrangement.

My hope is PowerPack cost will drop by 25% until 2020 and by 50% until 2025. And Powerwall will jump from sub 10kWh configurations to 20kWh at discharge rates compatible with no compromise electricity usage (much like a Tesla is a no compromise EV that is superior to ICE in most ways).

But the fact is Tesla Energy needs an order of magnitude drop in costs to break that hump. Assuming a PowerPack lasts 10 years, that's US$ 208 / month. And a daily cycle powerwall @ US$ 25 / month price. And in both cases inverter/installation costs extra, assuming you can order directly from Tesla avoiding resale margins.

I think the economic feasibility of a powerwall depends on the specifics. It's definitely not economical to storage all of your energy, but if someone only needs maybe 10-20% of their total energy use to be stored, the economics are way better. I think it's even possible to get below current grid costs in CA, but that's only with a mostly DIY solar/powerwall install.

 

[Robert.Boston]

What would happen if 4 or more neighbours shared a PowerPack, with cables running directly between their houses ?

State laws generally do not allow this in the U.S. Electric distribution companies are granted exclusive monopolies on selling electricity between properties, so at a minimum the co-op owning the PowerPack would have to become a state-regulated utility. At worst, the franchise utility in the area could claim preemption and force the customers to comply with its terms.

 

[Ampster]

I'm not sure how I feel about it in general. I think it's pretty crumby if someone is forced to a TOU plan. You could get charged 30+c/kWh for anything you use on-peak, but only paid 8c/kWh for whatever you export on-peak.

....

I am conflicted about that too. In California the reality of our unregulated generation market is that demand is the highest in the afternoons and early evenings in the summer. That is when the peaker plants come on with their expensive rates as the sun goes down on solar generation. During daylight hours I get paid high rates for my generation during those peak times. Then from 6pm until 8pm I pay high rates for anything I use. I wasn't forced into a TOU plan, I chose it because I could load shift and maximize the return on my investment in solar panels.