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[lolachampcar] Performance Upgrade Efforts
- Thread starter lolachampcar
- Start date
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- Tags
- Driving Dynamics Model S
passion4audio
member
Gizmotoy
Active Member
Those parts look great! No air, so I can't make use of them, or I'd definitely be interested. Quality work!
Giz,
I love the coil springs on my wife's car but I want the ride height on my car. Solution, lower my wife's car and put on the links at the same time (along with some P+ lower a-arms if I can get them). I think it will be better than my car when I am done and its not that much work.
Amp,
Thanks for the kind words but its not all that difficult. A little autocad time using Tesla's parts as a guide then stretch the center to center distance of the bushings. I also added 0.050" of extra thickness just to make absolutely sure they were stronger than the originals. All the hard work was done by the water jet cutters, mill operator that did the final hole dimensions and the anodizer. They make me look good.
I love the coil springs on my wife's car but I want the ride height on my car. Solution, lower my wife's car and put on the links at the same time (along with some P+ lower a-arms if I can get them). I think it will be better than my car when I am done and its not that much work.
Amp,
Thanks for the kind words but its not all that difficult. A little autocad time using Tesla's parts as a guide then stretch the center to center distance of the bushings. I also added 0.050" of extra thickness just to make absolutely sure they were stronger than the originals. All the hard work was done by the water jet cutters, mill operator that did the final hole dimensions and the anodizer. They make me look good.
lolachampcar, the request information... presented as a picture essay :smile:
REAR SPRING
# of Coils: 10
Spring Length Loaded: 11.5"
Spring Length Unloaded: 16" (bottom stub of spring extends slightly lower)
Coil #1 Diameter (bottom coil): 4.0"
Coils #2-10 Diameter: 4.9"
Coil Thickness (does not vary): 0.59"
FRONT SPRING
# of Coils: 7
Spring Length Loaded: 6.25"
Spring Length Unloaded: 10.25" (bottom stub of spring extends slightly lower)
Coil #1 Diameter (bottom coil): 3.89"
Coils #2-7 Diameter: 4.88"
Coil Thickness (does not vary): 0.55"
Random Thoughts
- Every bolt/nut in the suspension is marked (green). That's a serious commitment to quality at the factory. Given this... what is the root cause of the alignment issues??
- I believe a rear shock tower brace would do wonders for this car as the rear spring is monster long and goes all the way up into the body and mounts near the top of the rear hatch pillar.
- Unclear how the spring perches are attached to the shock body. I cannot find any welds.
- The lug nuts have 15-turns of travel...meaning you can safely use a fairly thick spacer. (Use this information at your own risk!)
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Thanks much for the information. I'm really torn on exactly how to proceed.
WRT a rear shock tower, I think the requirement to mount the battery ridgedly across the bottom of the car necessitated a very ridged chassis. I suspect there would be little gained with a strut tower bar front or rear. I find there is little to no chassis twist whenever I go over a speed bump one wheel first.
I think the reason you are not seeing any attachement points for the lower spring perches is because Tesla is using the exact same twin tube 50mm damper on both the air and spring cars. The pictures below show the adjustable 2.5" spring perch I got from Koni and there is a link to a Bilstein damper from Turner with what appears to be a removable perch that mounts on a clip similar to that on the Tesla dampers.
If the perch does sit on the clip on the coil spring cars then the whole issue of ride height may have just gotten very easy. Originally, I was thinking I was going to have to have springs made to the correct dimensions to provide the ride hieght I was looking for. With removeable perches, it may be possible to replace the existing perch with one set to the desired ride height or with an adjustable one. I think it is time to disassemble my wife's car which means giving up mine for a while
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1...-shock-e39-525i-528i-530i-540i-1997-2003.aspx
WRT a rear shock tower, I think the requirement to mount the battery ridgedly across the bottom of the car necessitated a very ridged chassis. I suspect there would be little gained with a strut tower bar front or rear. I find there is little to no chassis twist whenever I go over a speed bump one wheel first.
I think the reason you are not seeing any attachement points for the lower spring perches is because Tesla is using the exact same twin tube 50mm damper on both the air and spring cars. The pictures below show the adjustable 2.5" spring perch I got from Koni and there is a link to a Bilstein damper from Turner with what appears to be a removable perch that mounts on a clip similar to that on the Tesla dampers.
If the perch does sit on the clip on the coil spring cars then the whole issue of ride height may have just gotten very easy. Originally, I was thinking I was going to have to have springs made to the correct dimensions to provide the ride hieght I was looking for. With removeable perches, it may be possible to replace the existing perch with one set to the desired ride height or with an adjustable one. I think it is time to disassemble my wife's car which means giving up mine for a while
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1...-shock-e39-525i-528i-530i-540i-1997-2003.aspx
Attachments
I must say - I very much enjoy reading your posts, especially with all the great suspension pics!With removeable perches, it may be possible to replace the existing perch with one set to the desired ride height or with an adjustable one. I think it is time to disassemble my wife's car which means giving up mine for a while
Here are my ride heights. My P+ has lowering links so I should be a tad below stock for both Standard and Low. I would appreciate it if others could add their ride heights so we can see if Tesla is reasonably consistent. I measured by dropping a tape measure to the ground, through the center of the wheel center cap and then used a small stick under the wheel arch to "bring out" the bottom of the wheel arch at its highest point.
.
All measurements are in
Left Front Right Front
Left Rear Right Rear
format
Lowered P+
Low Setting
27 11/16 27 10/16
27 12/16 27 15/16
.
Standard Setting
28 15/16 28 4/16
28 15/16 29 0/16
.
S85 Coil Spring
29 6/16 29 8/16
29 10/16 29 8/16
.
All measurements are in
Left Front Right Front
Left Rear Right Rear
format
Lowered P+
Low Setting
27 11/16 27 10/16
27 12/16 27 15/16
.
Standard Setting
28 15/16 28 4/16
28 15/16 29 0/16
.
S85 Coil Spring
29 6/16 29 8/16
29 10/16 29 8/16
Here is what I came up with for spring rates based on the information measured above-
Front using 6.5 active coils with a 4.88" OD and 0.55" wire diameter yields 250 lb/in springs. Using a free length of 10.5" and installed at ride height of 6.25" yields a corner load of 1036 lbs.
Rear using 9.5 active coils with a 4.9" OD and a 0.59" wire diameter yields 240 lb/in springs. Using a free length of 16.5" and installed at ride height of 11.5" yields a corner load of 1200 lbs.
Front using 6.5 active coils with a 4.88" OD and 0.55" wire diameter yields 250 lb/in springs. Using a free length of 10.5" and installed at ride height of 6.25" yields a corner load of 1036 lbs.
Rear using 9.5 active coils with a 4.9" OD and a 0.59" wire diameter yields 240 lb/in springs. Using a free length of 16.5" and installed at ride height of 11.5" yields a corner load of 1200 lbs.
I'm going to drop the next batch of ten camber links off for machining. My first pass parts took about a degree out of an air suspension car's rear camber. Does this number still seem like the right one for everyone?
I'm working off the idea that my -2.2 or so went to -1.2 with the links which is almost exactly what my wife's S85 has on coil springs.
I'm working off the idea that my -2.2 or so went to -1.2 with the links which is almost exactly what my wife's S85 has on coil springs.
I think the reason you are not seeing any attachement points for the lower spring perches is because Tesla is using the exact same twin tube 50mm damper on both the air and spring cars. The pictures below show the adjustable 2.5" spring perch I got from Koni and there is a link to a Bilstein damper from Turner with what appears to be a removable perch that mounts on a clip similar to that on the Tesla dampers.
If the perch does sit on the clip on the coil spring cars then the whole issue of ride height may have just gotten very easy. Originally, I was thinking I was going to have to have springs made to the correct dimensions to provide the ride hieght I was looking for. With removeable perches, it may be possible to replace the existing perch with one set to the desired ride height or with an adjustable one. I think it is time to disassemble my wife's car which means giving up mine for a while
I can confirm your theory, if you haven't already... my shock body diameter:
Telsa is employing the K.I.S.S. engineering design principal (keep it simple, stupid). I very much like the idea of a threaded/adjustable perch and we can set our own ride-height. If this does work out, would you still do your own spring design, or would you use an off-the-shelf coil-over spring? I.e. see pages 19-23 http://performance-suspension.eibac...ach.com/files/download/ers_catalog_global.pdf
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+1 I'm good with ~1 degree of camber reduction
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I spoke with my wife about ride height on our run this am. Apparently she runs into parking stops with my car and would prefer the (highchair) ride height of her car as it is Looks like I'm out a ginny pig to experiment on. She also frowned on the idea of buying another one to play with. Anyone in the West Palm area with a spring car? I got some ideas...........
I think the stock spring rate is just fine and would think the simplest an easiest solution would be a new set of perches that lower the car to the desired ride height. This would lower the larger diameter coils so we would have to insure there were no tire interference issues. I do love the idea of getting P+ like results from two lower a-arms and four spring perches
WRT my wants, I'm going to see if air can be disabled (disable the air option on the computer side). If so, I think my car is going to get 2.5" coil overs on all four corners. I'm looking at M5 top strut mounts as there are some urethane bushed versions with 2.5" upper perches for just these types of conversion.
If you tried a 2.5" conversion on a coil spring car, you would have to buy 4 X $80 in lower spring perches (adjustable), 4 X $65 in springs and then solve the upper spring perch problem (which is 4 X $200 for the M5 parts I am looking at). I think custom lower perches and keeping everything else would be much smarter unless you absolutely needed adjustability. Perhaps adjustability could be accomplished with shims in the custom lower perches.
Thoughts?
Looks like I'm out a ginny pig to experiment on. She also frowned on the idea of buying another one to play with. Anyone in the West Palm area with a spring car? I got some ideas...........I think the stock spring rate is just fine and would think the simplest an easiest solution would be a new set of perches that lower the car to the desired ride height. This would lower the larger diameter coils so we would have to insure there were no tire interference issues. I do love the idea of getting P+ like results from two lower a-arms and four spring perches
WRT my wants, I'm going to see if air can be disabled (disable the air option on the computer side). If so, I think my car is going to get 2.5" coil overs on all four corners. I'm looking at M5 top strut mounts as there are some urethane bushed versions with 2.5" upper perches for just these types of conversion.
If you tried a 2.5" conversion on a coil spring car, you would have to buy 4 X $80 in lower spring perches (adjustable), 4 X $65 in springs and then solve the upper spring perch problem (which is 4 X $200 for the M5 parts I am looking at). I think custom lower perches and keeping everything else would be much smarter unless you absolutely needed adjustability. Perhaps adjustability could be accomplished with shims in the custom lower perches.
Thoughts?
L@urens
Family, Racing, Karting, MTBing
I looked at doing classical adjustable perches and ran into a material thickness issue. Specifically, the inner diameter of the coil spring when compared to the outer diameter of the damper spring seat clip did not leave enough annulus to have a sufficiently strong perch retaining sleeve.
The adjustable perches I purchased (and pictured earlier in this thread) have the retaining clip at the bottom of the threaded section and thus do not suffer from the above problem. These adjustable perches land the spring above the clip. To lower the car with the stock springs means landing the stock springs below the clip thus cramping room for sufficient material thickness.
I hope the above makes some sense.
The adjustable perches I purchased (and pictured earlier in this thread) have the retaining clip at the bottom of the threaded section and thus do not suffer from the above problem. These adjustable perches land the spring above the clip. To lower the car with the stock springs means landing the stock springs below the clip thus cramping room for sufficient material thickness.
I hope the above makes some sense.
mnx
2018 M3P
When my air suspension dies I'm bringing my car down to you for the "lolachampcar coil spring p+ upgrade"
I need a little help with this whole camber link thing. Specifically, I am all for a forum based effort to generate helpful parts. I'm not in the business, nor do I want to be, of making parts but I do not mind helpful projects for the greater good of the MS community.
What I do not want to do is expose myself to ANY liability. So far, I've provided some links to owners that I know and who know enough about cars and the risks associated with them to know if they want to make a change. I've provided some coffee table discussion pieces and they have decided to put this non-certified parts on their cars.
My question to all is how do I say yes to people that want to try the links without doing something stupid, picking the wrong person to send stuff to and then getting sued in the process? I realize there are releases to deal with liability issues but it has been my experience that documents are only as good as your willingness to litigate and I have ZERO willingness to litigate. Any other ideas?
What I do not want to do is expose myself to ANY liability. So far, I've provided some links to owners that I know and who know enough about cars and the risks associated with them to know if they want to make a change. I've provided some coffee table discussion pieces and they have decided to put this non-certified parts on their cars.
My question to all is how do I say yes to people that want to try the links without doing something stupid, picking the wrong person to send stuff to and then getting sued in the process? I realize there are releases to deal with liability issues but it has been my experience that documents are only as good as your willingness to litigate and I have ZERO willingness to litigate. Any other ideas?
Gizmotoy
Active Member
As someone interested in your stuff, the following hurts to say, but I understand your concern.
That's a hard situation, because there's always a chance someone will sue, no matter what you do. Even if all you do is provide a CAD file "to take a look at," you could end up in a situation where someone has the part fabricated and sues you over a failure. Short of producing parts only for yourself and keeping the results to yourself, you can't prevent a lawsuit. If you've provided a part that is clearly designed for installation on the car, calling it a coffee table piece will not protect you. Even if the driver does not want to sue you, their insurance company may. Fortunately, this is very rare, but you stated you don't want to take the chance.
What you can do is limit your liability. In most states it is extremely easy and cheap (often $50-$100) to file the paperwork required to set up an LLC with little (or sometimes no) involvement from a lawyer. This protects your personal property from potential litigation. When sending parts, do so as an agent of the LLC, not yourself. Liability releases are generally very flimsy. It's been widely found by courts that you cannot sign away your right to be protected from negligence, and thus even having signed a liability release, it's often the case that a lawsuit can proceed to determine if the entity has acted negligently.
LLCs can be taxed as sole proprietorship, and I believe in Florida you only need one natural person (legal terminology for a given human, excluding corporations and such) which would be ideal for this case... at least for now.
Unfortunately, your best move is probably seeking a consultation visit with a lawyer just to make sure you and your family are protected. If you do not want ANY liability, that's really your only option.
Edit: Here's some of the forms required in Florida, to give you an idea of what you'd be looking at. http://form.sunbiz.org/cor_llc.html
Also, wanted to make clear, if your LLC is sued, you'll still be responsible for defending it. However, your personal assets will not be on the line, only those of the LLC, which in this case may be nothing at all.
That's a hard situation, because there's always a chance someone will sue, no matter what you do. Even if all you do is provide a CAD file "to take a look at," you could end up in a situation where someone has the part fabricated and sues you over a failure. Short of producing parts only for yourself and keeping the results to yourself, you can't prevent a lawsuit. If you've provided a part that is clearly designed for installation on the car, calling it a coffee table piece will not protect you. Even if the driver does not want to sue you, their insurance company may. Fortunately, this is very rare, but you stated you don't want to take the chance.
What you can do is limit your liability. In most states it is extremely easy and cheap (often $50-$100) to file the paperwork required to set up an LLC with little (or sometimes no) involvement from a lawyer. This protects your personal property from potential litigation. When sending parts, do so as an agent of the LLC, not yourself. Liability releases are generally very flimsy. It's been widely found by courts that you cannot sign away your right to be protected from negligence, and thus even having signed a liability release, it's often the case that a lawsuit can proceed to determine if the entity has acted negligently.
LLCs can be taxed as sole proprietorship, and I believe in Florida you only need one natural person (legal terminology for a given human, excluding corporations and such) which would be ideal for this case... at least for now.
Unfortunately, your best move is probably seeking a consultation visit with a lawyer just to make sure you and your family are protected. If you do not want ANY liability, that's really your only option.
Edit: Here's some of the forms required in Florida, to give you an idea of what you'd be looking at. http://form.sunbiz.org/cor_llc.html
Also, wanted to make clear, if your LLC is sued, you'll still be responsible for defending it. However, your personal assets will not be on the line, only those of the LLC, which in this case may be nothing at all.
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I dug up the details of a very old project i did... where I worked with a company to design/build height adjustable spring perches on stock shocks... and I had forgotten about all the effort needed to make a street-able kit, i.e. all things NVH. We had to add bushings between the spring and the lower perch, design a new upper mount, w/new bushings, new bump stop, etc.
So I agree with you. A custom fixed lower perch and keeping everything else would be the way to go. How much of a drop where you thinking? And how much adjustability could you provide w/shims/bushings. Ideally, i'd like to drop my car 0.75"... maybe 1.0".
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Understand the arguments about a release of liability, but HMO, something is better than nothing. Something simple stating exactly what you're providing: experimental parts, not approved by anyone, buyer assumes the entire responsibility and liability. Buyer must sign... even ask us to get the form notarized - if that provides more protection.
Another idea would be to sell your design to a suspension company and they productize and release it. Which would obviously delay availability... but completely understand where you're coming from...
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S60 Coil Spring
29 10/16 29 8/16
29 8/16 29 10/16
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