Is ford lightening a winner for ford?

[thesmokingman]

I've worked in commercial, residential, and site construction for 20 plus years in multiple markets. I think a bigger issue is that a lot of people who use work trucks for actual work don't live in places where they can be recharged overnight.

If, however, you maintain a fleet of, say, landscaping vehicles, where those vehicles are returned to a shop every night, and your foremen and workers come in every day? This thing is a HUGE no brainer. But a lot of times those foremen or crew leads take those trucks home every night with them, and many of them often live in apartments and condos.

But man, if I'm a framing contractor and I can give my guys one of these that gets charged every night, and I don't have to constantly buy them gas for a generator, or buy them a generator that breaks all the time? And I don't have to maintain a diesel pickup for my crews? Win. Double win.

And side bonus, if my guys plug this thing into the temporary power pole at a site and borrow some power to charge the truck, since the GC / developer / owner is supposed to supply temp power as part of his contract anyway ? Double win.

And if I'm someone who owns a trade, and I live someplace that I can charge this thing every night, or I give this to my \ superintendent who drives to various jobsites and I don't have to pay diesel fuel / repair costs for 30,000 miles a year and my super can let his guys charge / power their stuff when I'm on site? Huge win.

So yeah, this thing is going to sell a TON.

Our world, the infrastructure, and ppl's exceptions will ultimately have to change and adapt. Apartment complexes for instance will have to start putting in chargers. As more people go ev, they will demand as much from their residences. If you have a parking stall, there should be a charger etc... one day in the near future. I think the infrasteucture will adapt... eventually. The problem though with these trucks is that they will be hugely inefficient so not only will they be pushing people's comfort zone right now when it comes to all the limitations you wrote, the efficiencies will just compound that. These trucks will have massive 150kw batteries just to hit a normal range 200m-300m yet that no one speaks about how long that will actually take to charge. It's kind of an elephant in the room that doesn't get talked about. All CNBC can do is pump up the expectation of the F150 Lightning or the Rivian R1T and yet not one peep of what it's actually going to be like to support one of these. We have to make the switch but it won't be easy with these ridiculously poor efficiencies.

 

[roblab]

Apartments won't need chargers. They'll need OUTLETS. A 110 outlet will often be able to top up a work truck, especially since most work trucks stay local. Mine rarely put in over 25 miles in a day. Sure, there were a couple times a week when one would head off to a distant job site, but that was rare.

But to assume that a CT won't be a viable option doesn't make sense. There are outlets everywhere, and a CT could plug in at the job site, if necessary, but of course that would not be necessary. Most jobs are local, and a CT could go all week without needing to charge.

And I've seen pictures of the CT hauling a BIG trailer. Of course, they'll be able to compete with Frod. Ford has been a joke ever since I was in seventh grade, 65 years ago or more. And they haven't improved.

 

[Darmie]

Our world, the infrastructure, and ppl's exceptions will ultimately have to change and adapt. Apartment complexes for instance will have to start putting in chargers.

I don't think so.
Let's make Ford step up to the plate and start providing DC fast charging. We're all demanding everyone else to do this but never see any movement from Ford. Ford could even start offering LVL 2 chargers. Provide the hardware and assist on the installation process. I don't know, call it something like destination charging.

 

[FlatSix911]

I don't think so.
Let's make Ford step up to the plate and start providing DC fast charging. We're all demanding everyone else to do this but never see any movement from Ford. Ford could even start offering LVL 2 chargers. Provide the hardware and assist on the installation process. I don't know, call it something like destination charging.

I agree.
Ford should provide a DC supercharging option... not just the fake level-2 chargers that look like Tesla SC's.

Ford is actually installing its Tesla Supercharger lookalike charging stations

Ford has started installing its Tesla Supercharger lookalike charging stations as the automaker insists on copying the design instead of...

electrek.co

"Ford has started installing its Tesla Supercharger lookalike charging stations as the automaker insists on copying the design instead of the business model. Last year, we reported on Ford unveiling its own charging station, and it looked quite clearly inspired by the Tesla Supercharger Now it looks like the automaker is actually deploying those new charging stations at Ford dealerships.

However, the resemblance with the Tesla Supercharger stops at the pedestal because those are level 2 charging stations and not DC fast chargers. Tesla executives even offered their opinion. Tesla Product Design Director Javier Verdura called Ford’s effort a “disingenuous unnecessarily large, poorly executed knock-off of our design”.

 

[Earl]

Apartments won't need chargers. They'll need OUTLETS. A 110 outlet will often be able to top up a work truck, especially since most work trucks stay local. Mine rarely put in over 25 miles in a day. Sure, there were a couple times a week when one would head off to a distant job site, but that was rare.

I have to disagree and, if you do the math, you'll disagree as well. A 110 outlet, unless it is connected to a dedicated circuit will provide you with about .8 kW of charging power. Assuming a truck gets about 2 mi/KWhr (500 Wh/mi), that will only get you about 14 miles of range in an 8 hour night. If you need 25 miles, you'll need to charge for 14 hours per night in order to get your 25 miles per day.
If you go with a dedicated circuit to each space, you can pull 16 amps (1.9 KW) from each outlet but you might as well use the dedicated circuit for a 240 V connection that will allow you to charge at 3.8 kW with the same wiring.
One can live with 110v, and, with a DCFC nearby to fully charge when necessary, it isn't too bad, however, most people don't get the full benefit of an EV unless they have a 240v (at least 16 amps) charging capability where they park much of the time.

 

[BooMan]

I don't think so.
Let's make Ford step up to the plate and start providing DC fast charging. We're all demanding everyone else to do this but never see any movement from Ford. Ford could even start offering LVL 2 chargers. Provide the hardware and assist on the installation process. I don't know, call it something like destination charging.

makes no sense for OEM’s to get involved in DCFC.

 

[roblab]

I have to disagree and, if you do the math, you'll disagree as well. A 110 outlet, unless it is connected to a dedicated circuit will provide you with about .8 kW of charging power. Assuming a truck gets about 2 mi/KWhr (500 Wh/mi), that will only get you about 14 miles of range in an 8 hour night. If you need 25 miles, you'll need to charge for 14 hours per night in order to get your 25 miles per day.
If you go with a dedicated circuit to each space, you can pull 16 amps (1.9 KW) from each outlet but you might as well use the dedicated circuit for a 240 V connection that will allow you to charge at 3.8 kW with the same wiring.
One can live with 110v, and, with a DCFC nearby to fully charge when necessary, it isn't too bad, however, most people don't get the full benefit of an EV unless they have a 240v (at least 16 amps) charging capability where they park much of the time.

I assume you're letting your crew take your EV trucks home, then, right? My trucks stayed at the shop, parked inside the warehouse, and could have charged for 15 hours straight, which would easily have given them all the power they would have needed to run around town all the next day.

BUT installing 220 at a warehouse is no big deal, and something I would have done. Even though, a 110 outlet would have filled the need for most of my crew, who spent the time out on the job, not driving all over.

Of course, one could find ways that charging at home wouldn't work, but I find many ways that it would. Even plugging in to 220 while loading up the supplies, etc., could give another few miles. Sure, there are places where jobs are strung out over 3 counties, but many businesses are located in the city limits. All I was saying was that one doesn't need chargers. They need OUTLETS. And a 110 v. outlet WILL top up a work truck unless it runs all over the place instead of installing product. And if the work trucks plug in at night, like at the warehouse, the truck will stay topped up. Don't tell me it can't work, because I would make sure it did.

And why do I need a dedicated circuit? All my circuits are unused all night. Plug in the truck and take your own car home, return the next morning, and head out, probably getting 15 hours of charge.

 

[Earl]

I would make sure it did

You may. However, that does not make it a good, viable solution overall since not everyone has as much control over their employees as you apparently do.
Quite the opposite, in fact, in some places.
I recall that in the late '90's/early '2000's, many US airports turned to electrification of ramp equipment (previously unregulated off-road diesels) as a means of reducing their pollution output. They started implementing basic overnight chargers. Some lazy ramp workers, quickly learned that, if they 'forgot' to plug in the equipment when they left work, they'd get the next day off because the equipment wouldn't work. This led the demand to install fast chargers that could provide significant charge in a 10 minute coffee break, hence thwarting this slackers' stunt. See attached photo from the Burbank Airport back in 2005 (Yes, I'm a geek - I take photos of DC fast chargers when get off the plane.

And why do I need a dedicated circuit?

Because normal 120v outlets are generally in a string of many outlets connected to a single 20 amp breaker. This means the breaker can support a short load of 20 amps and constant load of 80% of 20 amps or 16 amps. This would technically allow you to have 2 vehicles charging at 8 amps (0.9 KW) from any one breaker. With this much load, you're likely, however, to blow the breakers or start a fire if the breakers fail since they would be fully loaded so much of the time. This is not a good practice. How many such strings support the outlets in your warehouse? You're pretty much going to want to put in dedicated 20 amp breakers to single (or if you feel lucky, duplex) outlets throughout your warehouse.
I suspect, however, that local codes would require a dedicated 20 amp breaker with a single outlet for such constant loads anyway. Electricians who are more familiar with electrical codes may be able to comment more wisely than me. I just know the technical issues.

 

[Earl]

makes no sense for OEM’s to get involved in DCFC.

Yep. It certainly hasn't done Tesla any good /s

 

[outdoors]

On topic again. Will it be a winner for Ford?

Ford assembled 1.7 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2020 – 188,000 more than any other automaker – during a year that included the model year changeover of the best-selling Ford F-150 pickup.

So Ford stopped taking deposits at 200,000 pickup trucks for BEV model saying it is sold out for years. That's about how many they make in cars more in one calendar year than any other automaker.

Might it be a winner? More than likely this is a green wash. Won't move a needle on profits. Maybe makes them look relevant as they are trying to source batteries.

 

[BooMan]

Yep. It certainly hasn't done Tesla any good /s

Different scenario. And are you suggesting we should have OEMs be responsible for charging networks?? Are you serious? Why not have multiple standards while we are at it. No, anything other than 3rd party (maybe govt?) owned charging network would run into serious scale challenges when EVs are a relevant %of cars on the road (when they reach ~15% is my guess)

 

[Earl]

OEMs be responsible for charging networks?? Are you serious?

Sorry to all about remaining a bit off topic.
If the completion does it, private enterprises and/or the government (seriously?) haven't, and they want to be successful, they really don't have any choice. Kind of like including air conditioning and a radio as a standard option in cars. The market drives. Maybe, just as they provide maintenance service, it could even become a profit center in the future?
The big driver for EV sales right now is that Ford, GM, etc just have to make a compelling car in reasonable quantities. Pathetic charging infrastructure, while cheap to do, probably isn't the #1 reason for their current EV failed state. Tesla has left several market segments open for them, but nobody has yet made a credible effort at filling any of them.

multiple standards

This probably isn't really a great idea, it would be good to stick with existing standards. Thanks to lack of foresight (TEPCO), legacy ICE thugs (SAE), and parochial nationalistic/protectionist nations (EU), we're where we are today with 8 different EV charging standards (Tesla, CCS-1, CCS-2, CHAdeMO, J-1772, Type-2, SPI, AVCON). It would certainly be even more stupid to introduce another since pretty much all conceivable current needs are met. Maybe another will eventually be needed if higher power is needed for larger batteries (trucks?).
However, it wouldn't be a disaster, even if Ford or someone did introduce another standard. Today, we manage with about 17 incompatible fuel standards that I know of (regular unleaded, premium unleaded, diesel, CNG, E-85, Tesla, CCS, CHAdeMO, SPI, regular leaded, premium leaded, Avgas, Jet-A, JP5, JP7, JP8, DFM) in the USA alone. It isn't optimal but it does work and some things do require different capabilities.

 

[Zorg]

I am surprised that utilities haven't jumped all over the DCFC business.

 

[alexgr]

I am surprised that utilities haven't jumped all over the DCFC business.

Maybe because the overall annual revenue of the gas station (excluding auxiliary sales, which are the main source of profit, actually) is $400B and the maximum revenue of all DCFC business would be about $5B or 80 times less then for selling gasoline. For local travel most individuals and most companies will prefer to own charging systems.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Maybe because the overall annual revenue of the gas station (excluding auxiliary sales, which are the main source of profit, actually) is $400B and the maximum revenue of all DCFC business would be about $5B or 80 times less then for selling gasoline. For local travel most individuals and most companies will prefer to own charging systems.

Exactly. Public EV charging is never going to be as big as the gas station market since most charging happens at home/work even when you take into account apartment dwellers.

 

[nwdiver]

I am surprised that utilities haven't jumped all over the DCFC business.

Part of it comes down to a conflict of interest. Utilities have a regulated monopoly. Regulators get uncomfortable when businesses use that power to expand into new sectors of the economy. You can imagine that if Xcel decided to install DCFC they wouldn't be troubled by $15/kW demand charges as much as a competitor since they're paying themselves and the ACTUAL cost of demand is probably closer to ~$3 than $15.

There's a rate case with the NM PRC right now regarding Xcel deploying L2 and L3 chargers in NM. Xcel was explicit that their intention is to deploy in areas neglected by other 3rd parties. But I don't think Xcel wants to get into the DCFC business. Their primary goal is to encourage more EVs.

 

[Zorg]

DCFC is a good addition to any mall with food/drink options. A captive customer base for 30mns. Target and Walmart have already figured it out. I wouldn't be surprised if EA enlists more OEMs to spur it's growth like Ionity in Europe

 

[alexgr]

DCFC is a good addition to any mall with food/drink options. A captive customer base for 30mns. Target and Walmart have already figured it out. I wouldn't be surprised if EA enlists more OEMs to spur it's growth like Ionity in Europe

I strongly believe that Target and Walmart only leased some parking lot space to some companies that collect local and federal subsidies to build useless chargers.
Let me unpack.

Target and Walmart are major destination for LOCAL and often SUBURBAN shoppers. They are NOT prime destinations for interstate travelers.
IF the chargers are free, local customers may indeed be attracted to the store with more FREE chargers. But they are VERY NOT FREE. Am I an idiot to drive 3 miles from my 10 cents/kWh home charging to charge at 40+ cents/kWh at the far end of Walmart or Target? I guess I am correct as in the past year I only have seen 1 (ONE) car charging at 6 chargers installed in our Target parking lot.

That said, I agree with you if Target and Walmart are replaced by major shopping malls that happened to be by the interstate highways and traditional travel stop restaurants like Cracker&Barrel and IHOP.

 

[Zorg]

I strongly believe that Target and Walmart only leased some parking lot space to some companies that collect local and federal subsidies to build useless chargers.
Let me unpack.

Target and Walmart are major destination for LOCAL and often SUBURBAN shoppers. They are NOT prime destinations for interstate travelers.
IF the chargers are free, local customers may indeed be attracted to the store with more FREE chargers. But they are VERY NOT FREE. Am I an idiot to drive 3 miles from my 10 cents/kWh home charging to charge at 40+ cents/kWh at the far end of Walmart or Target? I guess I am correct as in the past year I only have seen 1 (ONE) car charging at 6 chargers installed in our Target parking lot.

That said, I agree with you if Target and Walmart are replaced by major shopping malls that happened to be by the interstate highways and traditional travel stop restaurants like Cracker&Barrel and IHOP.

Thanks for using all caps to make your point. That may be true, but the local Targets (2 within 10 miles of my house) have SCs and they're almost always full during the week-end. 1 is close to the freeway and one is not. Those are 10-16 stalls stations. I stand by my initial assertion. Given enough EVs (like say in the SF bay area), those DCFC are really good additions to shopping centers.

 

[Darmie]

makes no sense for OEM’s to get involved in DCFC.

No. Let's not expect any OEM to go above and beyond for their customers. What is this that Rivian is doing?

Maybe Ford is not expecting their electric truck to be much of a game changer so therefor, don't invest in charging options.