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People have been saying that Tesla's battery technology is somehow sub-standard for as long the Roadster has been out (remember Finkenbush?). Well guess what, they are still way down the road on everyone else.

If there is room for improvement, let's see it.
 
I think we are all counting on the fact that there is room for improvement.
Room for improvement in packing cells closer? Or room for improvement in cell density (which is happening naturally even without Tesla, for example the NCR18650B offers 3400mAh now)? Maybe both?

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The A123 pouch cells, and the Volt cells, are strapped together with thin cooling plates between them, I don't see any room for swelling, which should not be taking place as far as I know.
There's a discussion in EVTV about the need for expansion room for pouch cells, but it seems it was not conclusive (Jack does say A123 doesn't expand unlike other pouch cells and that the issue of flexing is a bigger concern). I take your word and Jack's that there is no need for room for expansion, but obviously the cooling plates take up space.
http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2012/02/this-week-we-continue-our-obsession-on.html

Anyways, given the relative densities of the cells, Tesla still can afford to leave a significant amount of free space for cooling and still have the most volumetrically dense pack.
 
Room for improvement in packing cells closer? Or room for improvement in cell density (which is happening naturally even without Tesla, for example the NCR18650B offers 3400mAh now)? Maybe both?
Yes both. I'm expecting at some point higher density cells, but cells with better temperature tolerance, improved electrolytes, should allow tighter packing with little to no active cooling. I'm not aware of anyone cooling the LiFePO4 cells we use in our conversions, even in warmer places such as Nevada, with no signs of capacity loss after 3+ years. If cooling is less of a concern and cell level safety is better, and production volume of pouch cells increases enough to get a price per kWh near that of 18650 production, then we don't need to have all that empty space and cooling channels. For now they are a necessary evil, but I don't expect that to always be the case.
 
Room for improvement in packing cells closer? Or room for improvement in cell density (which is happening naturally even without Tesla, for example the NCR18650B offers 3400mAh now)? Maybe both?
I think one of the ideas is that if you run a Model S for 150k miles or whatever and essentially kill the battery pack, at that point you can swap in a new one and have a car which is a lot closer to Good As New than any ICE would be.
 
Yes both. I'm expecting at some point higher density cells, but cells with better temperature tolerance, improved electrolytes, should allow tighter packing with little to no active cooling. I'm not aware of anyone cooling the LiFePO4 cells we use in our conversions, even in warmer places such as Nevada, with no signs of capacity loss after 3+ years. If cooling is less of a concern and cell level safety is better, and production volume of pouch cells increases enough to get a price per kWh near that of 18650 production, then we don't need to have all that empty space and cooling channels. For now they are a necessary evil, but I don't expect that to always be the case.

Its not just for cooling, but also to keep the pack toasty at winter. Expect to see the "cooling system" stay put for a long time.


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Tapatalkin' from iTalatut.
 
Its not just for cooling, but also to keep the pack toasty at winter. Expect to see the "cooling system" stay put for a long time.

I can corroborate this, when I plug in, you can hear the "heating system" spool up, to heat the pack before charging starts, it's been between 19-25 degrees here, I know a regular heat wave for some countries, but cold here. The pack doesn't like charging when it's cold, in fact I keep the car plugged in to a 120V outlet in my parking garage, the main purpose is not to add range to the car, but keep the pack warm, so regen and power are not limited for the drive home, it adds a few miles as well, but that's not the reason to plug it in at work.
 
Its not just for cooling, but also to keep the pack toasty at winter. Expect to see the "cooling system" stay put for a long time.
Other chemistries are less sensitive to the cold, as well as heat, and there are other ways to heat a pack. I do expect that design to remain for a while but I also expect to see it eliminated at some point.
Look at the A123 pack assembly, tightly packed cells with thin aluminum heat sink fins between groups of two cells. I would bet that in a larger pack where C rates would be ridiculously low compared to what the A123 cells are rated for those heat sinks could be eliminated.

 
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What I'm struck by is the empty space and space used for cooling. It looks as if it cuts the energy density of the cells by quite a bit. A prismatic cell that didn't need as much cooling could potentially raise pack density even if the cell density was lower. A123 EXT cells maybe? Certainly room for improvement at some point.

"Large cells without enough space between them to isolate against the cell-to-cell thermal domino effect means it is simply a matter of time before there are more incidents of this nature,"

Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

:biggrin: (And then JRP3 post a video of "better design" from company under chapter eleven ;P )
 
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Space between cells is necessary if using a chemistry that runs hot and is more prone to thermal runaway. Using a chemistry with low effective internal resistance that doesn't contain it's own O2, not so much :wink: As for A123 bankruptcy, poor management has nothing to do with the parameters of the product. Tesla has the best design for the current chemistry they are using. I hope in the future it won't be necessary.
 
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Space between cells is necessary if using a chemistry that runs hot and is more prone to thermal runaway. Using a chemistry with low effective internal resistance that doesn't contain it's own O2, not so much :wink: ....

Yes, like big* and safe A123 cells:

"Another example is the A123 Prius: an aftermarket Prius conversion using “safe” A123 cells caught fire while in use, and burned to the ground a few minutes later. The ensuing investigation found that a loose electrical connection generated intense heat, causing a nearby cell to fail catastrophically. The propagation from cell to cell was not contained and the entire vehicle burned down. Hopefully Fisker has been more diligent with the protection of its A123-based battery system."

from http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Guest-Post-Disparities-in-EV-Battery-Philosophy-Teslas-Hidden-Advantage/

*(ok not so big)
 
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Sorry, those were actually small cells, similar in size to what Tesla uses, not large format cells. And as your link states the cause was a loose connection that caused arcing, not an internal overheating condition. Just about any battery can catch on fire if you create a high resistance path and continuously pass current through it. Worth noting that in this case only a few cells out of the whole pack actually burned. Even though there was no space and no cooling the fire did not propagate through the whole pack and did not lead to full thermal runaway. Full report here, jump to page 11 to see the burnt pack if you don't want to read the whole thing.
 
You're right, those were small cells. And no, not the all cells catch fire. But that makes no difference to out come: car burned down.

(ok you don't need drive pack for fire, 12V is plenty enough, as Fisker now knows)

Linked investigation report is good read to anyone in this thread, showing a bad design compared the good design in the first post...
 
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I built a pack of 864 of the A123 26650's for my own homebrew Plug-in-Prius conversion. They are amazing cells! There is so little temperature rise, I didn't have to implement a cooling system. I've never seen them rise over 110 degrees, even after parking in the sun (hot car) and then pulling about 4C from them until dead. They are rated to handle 30C continuous discharge and 52C for 10 second pulses, and can routinely be charged in 15 minutes. After over 2 years and hundreds of cycles they still have MORE than the rated capacity. The only downside to them is they are expensive and relatively low energy density. But the savings and reduced complexity (for me) of not having a cooling system is a big plus.

The failure mentioned above was due to poor assembly techniques, I've never seen an A123 26650 fail.

-Phil
 
You're right, those were small cells. And no, not the all cells catch fire. But that makes no difference to out come: car burned down.
The car could have burnt if no cells at all had burned. A high current short can set fire to other vehicle components, as probably happened in this case. Probably the plastic battery cover was the first thing to ignite from the heat.
(ok you don't need drive pack for fire, 12V is plenty enough, as Fisker now knows)
Exactly.
Linked investigation report is good read to anyone in this thread, showing a bad design compared the good design in the first post...
If the connections had been properly tightened the design probably would have been fine and no fire would have ever occurred.