It looks like you don't have the capital cost of the filling station hardware, hydrogen compressors, and compressed storage, nor their maintenance. Also, I don't see any calculation for how many such pumps and compressors you need to meet the equivalent throughput of your model petrol station.
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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
The electrolyser that I reference in the link is a self-contained electrolyser / storage / pump unit. I should update the text to make that clear.
I have to agree. I saw one in the South Bay a couple weeks back while I was driving behind it, and holy lord was the back end ugly. I wasn't a fanew of the front, but at least I looked kind of techy and futuristic, but the rear of the car was horrible.
Hi,
I am blown away by this line in your spreadsheet:
average daily miles per filling station ==> 1469270144 which I interpret as 1,469,270,144 or over 1.4 billion
Can this really be true?! I just took a peek at some US stats, which suggest that 190 million US drivers do something like 2.5 trillion miles a year. So with a smaller population base and smaller territory, maybe the number you have in your spreadsheet is accurate. But... wow!!!!
Alan
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Huge amount of power used to make Petrol / Diesel - plus transport and:
I'd be interested in an estimate of that figure, expressed per "average filling station" so I could throw it at my range-rover-driving rich-bastard mates over dinner ...
... no doubt my dinner party invites will fall ... again!
Pretty sure that Fully Charged had some proposed figures, I'll have a hunt
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Found it ... "Volts for Oil" :
"In 2005 (last year for which figures were publicly available) the 3 big refineries in the UK used 5.642 gWh
best guess is that 1 (UK) gallon requires 4.5 kWh to refine
5.642 gWh could charge 23,000,000 electric cars to drive 20 trillion miles"
From your figures: Total daily petrol and diesel sales 151,159,480 Litres = 33,250,423 UK Gallons
33,250,423 UK Gallons * 4.5 kWh = 149,626,904 kWh to refine per day (54,651,226,686 kWh / year)
I seem to be some orders of magnitude out
"In 2005 (last year for which figures were publicly available) the 3 big refineries in the UK used 5.642 gWh
best guess is that 1 (UK) gallon requires 4.5 kWh to refine
5.642 gWh could charge 23,000,000 electric cars to drive 20 trillion miles"
From your figures: Total daily petrol and diesel sales 151,159,480 Litres = 33,250,423 UK Gallons
33,250,423 UK Gallons * 4.5 kWh = 149,626,904 kWh to refine per day (54,651,226,686 kWh / year)
I seem to be some orders of magnitude out
Cut and paste error from the previous spreadsheet. That is of course all UK filling stations. Thanks for the catch.
I seem to be some orders of magnitude out
Your number is one order of magnitude higher.
My source data is the UK Petroleum Industry Association. I don't think it's an extra 0 in their data as it appears a few times in various forms.
The how much energy does it take to refine thing has always been ambiguous. For starters it's energy not electricity. Definitely merits further investigation.
In case anyone wants to check the references...
1 http://www.itm-power.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/FCB-012012.pdf
2 https://www.boconline.co.uk/interne...-max-fueller-90-data-sheet410_39433.pdf?v=1.0
3 Toyota Ushers In The Future With The Mirai Fuel Cell Car - UK Media Site
4 http://www.ukpia.com/docs/default-s...-library/statistical-review-2016.pdf?sfvrsn=0
5 Average Vehicle Age - SMMT
6 Fuel Consumption (ENV01) - Statistical data sets - GOV.UK
7 Mirai goes the extra mile | Latest News & Events | Toyota UK
8 Renewable sources of energy: Chapter 6, Digest of United Kingdom Energy Statistics (DUKES) - Publications - GOV.UK
9 http://www.enercon.de/en/products/ep-4/e-126-ep4/
10 http://www.wind-energy-the-facts.org/index-43.html
11 http://www.itm-power.com/news-item/update-on-hydrogen-cost-structure
12 http://www.itm-power.com/news-item/hydrogen-cost-structure-update
13 http://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1010136/breaking-down-cost-wind-turbine-maintenance
1 http://www.itm-power.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/FCB-012012.pdf
2 https://www.boconline.co.uk/interne...-max-fueller-90-data-sheet410_39433.pdf?v=1.0
3 Toyota Ushers In The Future With The Mirai Fuel Cell Car - UK Media Site
4 http://www.ukpia.com/docs/default-s...-library/statistical-review-2016.pdf?sfvrsn=0
5 Average Vehicle Age - SMMT
6 Fuel Consumption (ENV01) - Statistical data sets - GOV.UK
7 Mirai goes the extra mile | Latest News & Events | Toyota UK
8 Renewable sources of energy: Chapter 6, Digest of United Kingdom Energy Statistics (DUKES) - Publications - GOV.UK
9 http://www.enercon.de/en/products/ep-4/e-126-ep4/
10 http://www.wind-energy-the-facts.org/index-43.html
11 http://www.itm-power.com/news-item/update-on-hydrogen-cost-structure
12 http://www.itm-power.com/news-item/hydrogen-cost-structure-update
13 http://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1010136/breaking-down-cost-wind-turbine-maintenance
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that, I now see where I have been a prat !
I wrongly transcribed 5,642 gWh as 5 POINT 642 gWh ... after fixing that I am indeed only one order of magnitude out.
"The 3 big refineries in the UK used 5,642 gWh ...
... 5,642 gWh could charge 23,000,000 electric cars to drive 20 trillion miles"
By my maths 5,642 gWh @ 250 Wh/mile comes to 22,568,000,000 miles ... more orders of magnitude compared to "20 trillion miles" - I've probably got something obvious wrong again
No there is something wrong with the quote. It's either 20 billion miles or 20 million miles depending on if you take 5,642 or 5.642 gWh. And the number of EVs doesn't come into it.
I've been working on a few more, including real-world sites which were the catalyst for me to look into this.
I also found a recent paper that states the energy use by these sites and revises it up.
As before, any feedback welcome.
I also found a recent paper that states the energy use by these sites and revises it up.
As before, any feedback welcome.
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For that last example, "Practicality and Cost for a Supermarket Petrol Filling Station to be Replaced by Grid Hydrogen Production"... the caption correctly notes that upstream emissions should be factored in. That's also the case for a pure EV.
But... if you were to add a row or two to your table examining Grid CO2 emissions per mile for pure EV, I think you're going to find lower numbers for the pure EV. Heck, throw in a row for Oregon or Norway or somewhere where the grid is really clean, to show what we're aiming for.
Not to mention the "minor" point that the filling station requires a 13 MEGAwatt connection, while the pure EVs are being charged at home, at workplaces, and perhaps occasionally at "filling stations" (e.g., superchargers).
Moreover, as the grid becomes cleaner, each EV **already deployed** becomes much cleaner. Ironically, with on-site steam methane reforming (SMR) (perhaps the cheapest case for a hydrogen vehicle), as the grid becomes cleaner, we'll still be stuck with CO2-dirty SMR.
Thank you for all the work you're doing assembling this analysis!
Alan
But... if you were to add a row or two to your table examining Grid CO2 emissions per mile for pure EV, I think you're going to find lower numbers for the pure EV. Heck, throw in a row for Oregon or Norway or somewhere where the grid is really clean, to show what we're aiming for.
Not to mention the "minor" point that the filling station requires a 13 MEGAwatt connection, while the pure EVs are being charged at home, at workplaces, and perhaps occasionally at "filling stations" (e.g., superchargers).
Moreover, as the grid becomes cleaner, each EV **already deployed** becomes much cleaner. Ironically, with on-site steam methane reforming (SMR) (perhaps the cheapest case for a hydrogen vehicle), as the grid becomes cleaner, we'll still be stuck with CO2-dirty SMR.
Thank you for all the work you're doing assembling this analysis!
Alan
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Is it worth, also, comparing that to storing the electricity onsite in static batteries, and then charging BEVs? would 300 Wh/mile be a fair conversion guestimate - allowing for losses etc?
East London Solar production:
July 410 kWh/day @ 300 Wh/mile = 1,366 BEV miles (Hydrogen 411 miles)
December 106 kWh/day@ 300 Wh/mile = 353 BEVmiles (Hydrogen 106 miles)
(I'm surprised that December generation at London latitude is as much as 1/4 of July, I thought the difference between Summer and Winter was nearer to a factor of 10?)
Rotherham Wind production:
1078 kWh/day@ 300 Wh/mile = 3,593 BEV miles (Hydrogen 1,082 miles)
However, I do wonder about that ... is there a benefit to on-site static storage? compared to just feeding any excess into the grid and using from grid when car-charging demand exceeds onsite production?
I've done BEV ones but it is work in progress. I'd like confirmation on Bolt depth of discharge buffer (i.e. usable battery), Powerpack maintenance costs and rapid charger maintenance costs. I've also assumed 1 day of buffer for the wind case right now.
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I'm also doing one for the P100D. This is also work in progress.
I've used the data on charging efficiency from the onboard charger for now, but this is clearly not right. What I would like is the charging efficiency going from the wind turbine to the storage and then the supercharger as all-DC. If you could use a DC wind turbine I'm guessing the whole chain would have less losses, but I'd have to look into DC wind turbines vs AC and then rectifying it.
I also need to factor in supercharger costs.
I've used the data on charging efficiency from the onboard charger for now, but this is clearly not right. What I would like is the charging efficiency going from the wind turbine to the storage and then the supercharger as all-DC. If you could use a DC wind turbine I'm guessing the whole chain would have less losses, but I'd have to look into DC wind turbines vs AC and then rectifying it.
I also need to factor in supercharger costs.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
If I have read it correctly? your EV filling station only fills 10% of the number of cars of a Petrol / Diesel one (based on the assumption that BEVs only charge 10% away-from-home). Might be right, given that they take, say, 10x as long to fill with Electricity as Petrol but for an Electric Filling Station to be profitable / equivalent to a Petrol one, won't it need to service as many cars? i.e. Electric Filling Stations service the same number of cars as today, but 90% of them are scrapped, rather than each one filling 1/10th of the cars compared to Fossil Filling Days? (the slower filling rate not withstanding). Maybe it comes to the same thing, overall? can't quite get my brain around it , at the least maybe the "number of wind turbines per EV filling station" is no longer comparable like-for-like?
Apologies if this is irrelevant.
It's irrelevant how long they take in this case. Even if they could charge an EV in one minute flat, it's still the case that most EV drivers slow charge at home or work and the stats say that is for 90% of driving. In which case, the filling station has to provide 10% of the miles that in the ICE world they have to provide 100% of.
That may well lead to mass closures. I haven't used the filling station at the end of my street in nearly 5 years. I tend to put petrol into my Ampera every few months at another cheaper one. In the long run we might see highway supercharging stations with maybe people with no off-street parking using charging stations at the supermarket or their place of work. The role of the stand-alone garage could well disappear. It's no wonder the industry would like to convert us to 100% hydrogen.
That may well lead to mass closures. I haven't used the filling station at the end of my street in nearly 5 years. I tend to put petrol into my Ampera every few months at another cheaper one. In the long run we might see highway supercharging stations with maybe people with no off-street parking using charging stations at the supermarket or their place of work. The role of the stand-alone garage could well disappear. It's no wonder the industry would like to convert us to 100% hydrogen.
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