JRP3
Hyperactive Member
No it can't because EV's even with the current grid mix are replacing a dirtier and less efficient fueling system.
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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
I've read that a gas car is dirtier than even a coal-fired power plant. So an EV is better than a gas car even if it gets its electricity from coal. One possible exception might be the Prius. And of course any plug-in hybrid that's being mostly driven within its electric range.
And of course an EV has the potential to charge from zero-carbon energy, as my EVs have always done: Hydro when I lived in Spokane, and solar now.
H2 has the theoretical potential to use green H2, but at present there's essentially none of that available, and nobody is doing anything to make any significant amount of it available.
And of course an EV has the potential to charge from zero-carbon energy, as my EVs have always done: Hydro when I lived in Spokane, and solar now.
H2 has the theoretical potential to use green H2, but at present there's essentially none of that available, and nobody is doing anything to make any significant amount of it available.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Peak electricity power is NG
Hydrogen is NG
You can split hairs but that will not amount to much of a difference.
I'm not saying that EVs are as stupid as the 'hydrogen economy' -- far from it. But Chris' hydrogen argument points out that the advantages have to be found elsewhere. In the case of EVs, it is because they are a catalyst for more clean energy generation. One easy to see example is the prevalence of EV buyers who install home PV.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
First, the efficiency of an NG charged EV is higher than an NG derived HFCV so EV's are already cleaner. Second, EV charging can already be from renewables that would otherwise be curtailed, like overnight wind power and hydro power or directly from daytime solar.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Or not.
Although I am a chief critic of the electric utilities, I suspect that in general they are correct that EVs today are a net negative. I think it will remain so until the grid is transitioned to TOU rates that motivate people to charge at times when clean energy is cheap and bountiful.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Most people charge at night even without TOU.
(TOU doesn't require grid changes. It's just billing.)
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Here in NY I've had a reduced overnight rate for 15+ years. Even without that it just makes sense to charge when you are least likely to be using the vehicle which is overnight. In any case the greater efficiency of EV vs HFCV invalidates your initial claim.
I charge mid-day once my Powerwalls are full in order to avoid backfeeding solar to the grid during off-peak. It’s an ideal setup to dump the excess solar into our cars directly instead of using the grid as a battery. And while I recognize that energy is (mostly) fungible, I like knowing that my cars are nearly 100% solar charged on site.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Yup. 'Grid as battery' has become a political slogan since it can mean things as different as distributing to a neighbor in real time, or storing the energy for later use. The former is most excellent, the latter an expensive, corner case use at best.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
"sense" depends on one's goals. E.g., if you live in an area where PV is plentiful from 9am to 3am while coal is king from 6pm - 8am, you may well find it makes "sense" to find a way charge between 9am - 3pm in order to fuel your car with clean energy. Your neighbor may find it makes the best "sense" to charge between 6pm - 8pm because coal derived electricity is the cheapest in your neighborhood.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
The distinction is that 'indiscriminate' electrification is still progress albeit sometimes slower progress while 'indiscriminate' use of hydrogen often goes backward.
Burning coal to charge an EV is still better than burning oil in many ways but paying to convert 12kWh of CH4 into 10kWh of H2 so you can burn 8kWh of H2 in a house instead of just burning the 12kWh of CH4 directly is better in no ways. Even if that H2 was green it could have been used to displace 12kWh of CH4 as H2 instead of 8kWh of CH4 as a home heating fuel.
When I lived in Spokane I always charged my car at night. I got no special rate. It was just the responsible thing to do. Now I charge my car in the daytime because that's when my solar panels produce the electricity to send directly to the car.
I cannot imagine that EVs put any significant strain on the grid. But even if they do, the net benefit to the environment is less gasoline refined (which I'm pretty sure uses a s**t-ton of electricity) and (very inefficiently) burned.
I cannot imagine that EVs put any significant strain on the grid. But even if they do, the net benefit to the environment is less gasoline refined (which I'm pretty sure uses a s**t-ton of electricity) and (very inefficiently) burned.
Switching over to EVs will put a strain on our grid, if it stays the same as we have today. That point seems to be missing by both sides of the EV argument. It's foolish to think transitioning will be easy and seamless and it's also foolish to complain we can't transition based on a status quo that can and will change.
Merrill
Merrill
This is something that I have wondered about, since most vehicle manufacturers are going to EV’s I wonder how the grid can handle that. Pacific Graft and Extortion cannot even keep the grid up now how will they handle more usage of the grid.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Also missing from your argument is that the biggest change will be how and when we use the grid, not changes to the physical grid itself. Growing the grid 50% is a HUGE undertaking; time shifting usage 50% is not that big a deal.
My home is a microcosm of the larger system. I have a 300 Amp panel, meaning 72 kW. The panel can supply 52,560 kWh a month. My annual consumption is about 500 kWh. The system is vastly (~ 99x) oversized to accommodate theoretical peak power. But it is equally true that I can increase consumption up to 100x without any change to my home 'grid' if I spread out the consumption evenly.
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I've seen this brought up repeatedly in much of the literature about the transition. I don't think it's being missed, just might be possible you've missed some of the discussion. If you search for it, you'll find a number of articles discussing plans to load shift AND upgrade grid capacity, as well as encouraging micro-grids and distributed generation (usually PV).
I would argue otherwise. Some utilities don't have the current capability to shift usage and shifting 50% is a huge number. Even this isn't an overnight change that might require changes to metering, billing systems, customer information systems, etc. Those things take years to complete. So like I said it is foolish to think the status quo will remain the status quo but also foolish to think that the change will be easy. I think we do everyone a disservice in minimizing the change required but should also let people know that the change is definitely possible and is already happening.
I'm not really considering those articles and papers. Those are important and help point us to the the possible paths to accomplish the needed change. My comment was more about general comments and perhaps our media. I'll try and say this a few different ways here to make sure I'm not misunderstood. We shouldn't be afraid of change but also should be realistic that change will require adjustments that will impact some more than others.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
It won't, just as the grid didn't stay the same when refrigerators were introduced or when air conditioning was introduced, or any other extra demand on the grid. Why would you think it would be any different this time, especially when most charging will be done when it's most convenient, overnight, when the grid has plenty of excess capacity?
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