How does Tesla continue to sell Model S for 40-50K more than 3.?

[StealthP3D]

And they’ll stop caring about it when the shareholders figure out why people are leaving the brand for the competition in a few years.

That's a silly statement considering Tesla is the fastest growing automaker in the world and all their cars come with synthetic leather.

 

[DMatthew]

0. Of course it's subjective - most everything is. I favor a minimalist design (I'm from Germany, s fan of Bauhaus and my wife is a retired high-end interior designer - that's why. The S is much, much, too cluttered with many too many buttons, stalks and knobs .

1. Right, I agree the 3 is a better handling car. That was *my* point. However, it's not only because it's smaller (by the way, smaller does not always handle better than larger), but also the stiffness of the suspension, steering etc

And this handling is evident in normal day to day driving. I only metion Track Mode in response to the comment that the S is quicker/faster.

If one truly enjoys the experience of driving, the 3 will truly inspire you (especially the. AWD). You don't even need the Performance version for that. Many Americans mistake "speed" (especially 0-60) as the indicator of a "performance", when it's more about weight distribution, steering response, suspension etc. (In fact, I always keep the steering setting in Sport, even in long trips).

That's why s low-end Porsche 911 performs "better" than the highest end Mercedes S Class.

The S is like a Mercedes S Class and the 3 is like a Porsche. To your point, it's subjective - it depends what want. I like performance so for me.the 3 is an upgrade.


2. ??? You're making my point for me. Ludicrous is a software upgrade, not hardware. It stresses the hardware more, but enabling it is purely software. Anyway, you are correct that it involves more than the battery but also the motors, hence making my point for me... In the 3 both the motors and batteries are upgraded versions compared to the S.

So, if Tesla allows a ludicrous mode for the 3P it will be quicker than the SP100D, because of superior handling, batteries and motors, and lighter weight. However, 1) Tesla may not want to cannibalize their sales so that may not happen. 2) to be fair, when the S refresh happens this year, everything will change.

Anyway, most decisions we all make are based upon personal preferences (except the performance handling - that's objective), but that's what the OP posted about; the difference between the two.

My view is that the 3 is an upgrade from the S. It's like coming from a Cadillac to a BMW M3.

0. Of course it's subjective - most everything is. I favor a minimalist design (I'm from Germany, s fan of Bauhaus and my wife is a retired high-end interior designer - that's why. The S is much, much, too cluttered with many too many buttons, stalks and knobs .

1. Right, I agree the 3 is a better handling car. That was *my* point. However, it's not only because it's smaller (by the way, smaller does not always handle better than larger), but also the stiffness of the suspension, steering etc

And this handling is evident in normal day to day driving. I only metion Track Mode in response to the comment that the S is quicker/faster.

If one truly enjoys the experience of driving, the 3 will truly inspire you (especially the. AWD). You don't even need the Performance version for that. Many Americans mistake "speed" (especially 0-60) as the indicator of a "performance", when it's more about weight distribution, steering response, suspension etc. (In fact, I always keep the steering setting in Sport, even in long trips).

That's why s low-end Porsche 911 performs "better" than the highest end Mercedes S Class.

The S is like a Mercedes S Class and the 3 is like a Porsche. To your point, it's subjective - it depends what want. I like performance so for me.the 3 is an upgrade.


2. ??? You're making my point for me. Ludicrous is a software upgrade, not hardware. It stresses the hardware more, but enabling it is purely software. Anyway, you are correct that it involves more than the battery but also the motors, hence making my point for me... In the 3 both the motors and batteries are upgraded versions compared to the S.

So, if Tesla allows a ludicrous mode for the 3P it will be quicker than the SP100D, because of superior handling, batteries and motors, and lighter weight. However, 1) Tesla may not want to cannibalize their sales so that may not happen. 2) to be fair, when the S refresh happens this year, everything will change.

Anyway, most decisions we all make are based upon personal preferences (except the performance handling - that's objective), but that's what the OP posted about; the difference between the two.

My view is that the 3 is an upgrade from the S. It's like coming from a Cadillac to a BMW M3.

The Model S has grand total of two (2) flush buttons.

 

[Derek Kessler]

The Model S has grand total of two (2) flush buttons.

But there are three control stalks on the steering wheel shaft and a scroll wheel with two buttons on each side of the steering wheel! OMG it's so much!

 

[Tummy]

I have both a refresh 2016 S and an early 2018 Model 3 (1 yr old next week). Overall I like our S much better then the 3. The only car I would consider replacing our S with is a newer or refreshed S, or slight used P100d. The first time I saw a 3 in real life was when we picked it up. If I had driven it before putting in our order, we would have bought a second S or an X. We had a lot of early VIN issues and the gaps still look like crap even after being in the body shop for 2 weeks.

Many people say design is subjective, but that is not really the case. There are certain elements that a majority of people respond to based on culture and history. This is why the S initially had a fake grill and have long hoods. The long hood use to contain powerful engines. They modeled the design after traditional premium and more exotic cars at the time. Jaguar, Aston Martin and other high end cars. The prototype was actually a modified Mercedes CLS.

Elon is a big fan of sports cars, owning a 1967 Jag e-type and Mclaren F1. I think you can clearly see elements from those cars in the early S. I feel they compromised headroom and visibility to get the high end look. But it was required at the time to get early investors and sell the S at the high prices.

The Model 3 was designed to be more friendly and happy, rather than to compete with exotic and luxury cars. It goes after “cheap and cheerful”. When you ignore history and classical elements, you end up with a functional car like the BMW i3, which most find ugly. I had two of those in 2014 when they first came out in the US on 24 month lease. The Man Behind the Model 3: Franz von Holzhausen | Automobile Magazine

I’m expecting a refresh for the S this year. You can tell because there are really no previous options they can bundle into the base price.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

True. But that's in "ludicrious" mode which is not to be used on a regular basis as it degrades the battery. Non-ludicrious is 2.9. And again, that's that's just 0-60. The actual driving experience, especially in twisties is much more satisfying for a peformance driver with the 3 than the S.

The 3 also has "track mode" which the S doesn't, making the driving in a closed track faster than the S. Finally, the ludicrous option may be coming to the 3, since it's just a software upgrade (the batteries on the 3 are newer/better than on the S).

I keep my S P100D on ludicrous mode all the time. Never drive it on Chill or Sport which are the other modes. Ludicrous mode does not degrade the battery only ludicrous plus does as the car will warn you when it is put on Ludicrous plus.

S P100D handles incredibly well, incredibly quick like nothing else, a Porsche 911 Turbo or even a Mclaren 650S are noticeably slower as is the P3D: 0 to 60 in 2.3 secs does that. Go test drive a S P100D. The driving experience and overall feel of the car is very smooth, solid, very refined and very very fast. Different from the Model 3.

As for the S P100D being a poor track car. True but I will never take it on a track so don’t care. I love the S’s 0 to 60 which is frighteningly unbeatable by any other production car.

Finally, to answer the question since we bought the S in Sept 2018: We were considering a Mercedes S Class, BMW 7 series and the other top contender, the Porsche Panamera Turbo, etc when buying a new car. As for Tesla’s, the model 3 was too small with cramped back seats and I did not like the X specifically it’s falcon doors. I loved the S P100D when I test drove it and ended up buying the car I test drove for a 14k discount since it was a showroom/inventory car with 800 miles. Tesla also was running a free supercharging for as long as we own the car promotion at the time. Perfection!

 

[vickh]

It is supposed to still be available off-book by placing your order via an OA instead of the site.

that's good to hear. 7 seats were a key distinguishing factor for me but I was concerned that Tesla had discontinued due to safety

 

[Brisket5652]

I keep my S P100D on ludicrous mode all the time. Never drive it on Chill or Sport which are the other modes. Ludicrous mode does not degrade the battery only ludicrous plus does as the car will warn you when it is put on Ludicrous plus.

S P100D handles incredibly well, incredibly quick like nothing else, a Porsche 911 Turbo or even a Mclaren 650S are noticeably slower as is the P3D: 0 to 60 in 2.3 secs does that. Go test drive a S P100D. The driving experience and overall feel of the car is very smooth, solid, very refined and very very fast. Different from the Model 3.

As for the S P100D being a poor track car. True but I will never take it on a track so don’t care. I love the S’s 0 to 60 which is frighteningly unbeatable by any other production car.

Finally, to answer the question since we bought the S in Sept 2018: We were considering a Mercedes S Class, BMW 7 series and the other top contender, the Porsche Panamera Turbo, etc when buying a new car. As for Tesla’s, the model 3 was too small with cramped back seats and I did not like the X specifically it’s falcon doors. I loved the S P100D when I test drove it and ended up buying the car I test drove for a 14k discount since it was a showroom/inventory car with 800 miles. Tesla also was running a free supercharging for as long as we own the car promotion at the time. Perfection!

I meant ludicrous+.

Funny timing... I put my tm3p in for service yesterday afternoon (replace side mirror assembly), do my loaner is another S75D .And within 10 minutes of driving it, I laughed out loud and though of this thread .I stand by my assertions.. the S is a luxury sedan (beautiful car but a "boat"), the 3 is a sports car. Handling is night and day.

I truly am itching to get my 3 back (hopefully today).

 

[vickh]

I meant ludicrous+.

Funny timing... I put my tm3p in for service yesterday afternoon (replace side mirror assembly), do my loaner is another S75D .And within 10 minutes of driving it, I laughed out loud and though of this thread .I stand by my assertions.. the S is a luxury sedan (beautiful car but a "boat"), the 3 is a sports car. Handling is night and day.

I truly am itching to get my 3 back (hopefully today).

Would you stand behind the handling with a LeMR M3 as well? I agree the boat/size analogy still applies

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

I meant ludicrous+.

Funny timing... I put my tm3p in for service yesterday afternoon (replace side mirror assembly), do my loaner is another S75D .And within 10 minutes of driving it, I laughed out loud and though of this thread .I stand by my assertions.. the S is a luxury sedan (beautiful car but a "boat"), the 3 is a sports car. Handling is night and day.

I truly am itching to get my 3 back (hopefully today).

I also had a S75D loaner. It is nothing like the SP100D in the way it handles. The S75D drives like a Mercedes S or any other huge luxury car and not a supercar.

The SP100D is very nimble, very quick and does not feel like a boat at all even though it is very heavy. My friends and family who are used to driving Porsche, Lambo, Aston Martin two seaters, etc are amazed at how it handles. It definitely rivals, is faster (handling/response not just acceleration) than most super cars. Go test drive a SP100D before you make pronouncements.

The SP100D is called a supercar killer for a reason.

Eagerly anticipating the 2020 Roadster. 0 to 60 in 1.9 secs and 600+ range. No gas.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Just imagine if the P100D had the Performance Plus suspension from the P85+/P85D??!?

 

[PhilDavid]

Just imagine if the P100D had the Performance Plus suspension from the P85+/P85D??!?

Not sure what percentage of their customers able to afford a ~140K car, and likely older, would want a stiffer suspension in their car.

Can you not add a different suspension aftermarket?

We personally prefer the more comfortable suspension currently offered in Tesla performance cars. The thrill to us is the straight line acceleration...

Perhaps Tesla can make their suspension ADJUSTABLE like some other premium cars? This way if you want to stiffen the suspension, you can do that on demand. So if you are taking it easy, you can keep it in comfort mode and if you are driving on a twisty road, you can switch to Sport?

While I would like the option to adjust the suspension, I would not want it to be permanently stiffer though if there is only one option.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Age has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Many of us just like sportier, stiffer suspensions with a firm connection to the road.

Acceleration is ok, but a one trick pony. The real excitement is in the twisties.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

Not sure what percentage of their customers able to afford a ~140K car, and likely older, would want a stiffer suspension in their car.

The S and X P100D appeals to the same luxury market that can afford 150k cars: the Mercedes G wagon (talk about a rough ride) or S class, Audi R8, Porsche Panamera/Cayenne Turbo, etc. as well as people thinking about buying a used Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche 911 Turbo, etc. The P100D is much more practical, easier to maintain but can smoke-’em all doing 0 to 60: I also love the fact that the car is completely silent doing that in 2.28 secs.

I like the suspension on my SP100D just fine. It is very comfortable on long road trips and hauling kids and all their stuff around, the boys love it

 

[Lifeinabox]

I also had a S75D loaner. It is nothing like the SP100D in the way it handles. The S75D drives like a Mercedes S or any other huge luxury car and not a supercar.

The SP100D is very nimble, very quick and does not feel like a boat at all even though it is very heavy. My friends and family who are used to driving Porsche, Lambo, Aston Martin two seaters, etc are amazed at how it handles. It definitely rivals, is faster (handling/response not just acceleration) than most super cars. Go test drive a SP100D before you make pronouncements.

The SP100D is called a supercar killer for a reason.

Eagerly anticipating the 2020 Roadster. 0 to 60 in 1.9 secs and 600+ range. No gas.

Unless the 75D had coils, it’s the exact same suspension as your P100D. Maybe the tires matter but it’s not night and day like the + suspension. Still a boat. Nothing wrong with that as I drive one.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

Unless the 75D had coils, it’s the exact same suspension as your P100D. Maybe the tires matter but it’s not night and day like the + suspension. Still a boat. Nothing wrong with that as I drive one.

The S 75D was a 2018 with 2000 miles on it. Driving the loaner was nothing like driving my 2018 MS P100D; completely different feel, slow which isn’t surprising since the 75D goes 0 to 60 in 5.2 secs vs 2.28 for the SP100D - same suspension or not. I generally dislike driving full size sedans but I love driving the SP100D because it does not feel like a boat at all as big and heavy (boatlike) as it is. It is freakishly fast, fastest 0 to 60 production car around under 800k+.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to be comparing the S 75D (or the P3D+) to the SP100D which basically costs double: Totally different cars/different markets like comparing a Mercedes E class to a Mercedes S - as Tesla becomes a more mass market brand.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

My MS P100D is more fun to drive, cheaper, and can smoke this on a 1/4 mile in kid hauler/boat vs Lamborghini. LOL!

And that is one HOT car... gets 12 mpg.

 

[Got-EMF]

How much more is it worth to have a car that won't rust?

 

[Lifeinabox]

The S 75D was a 2018 with 2000 miles on it. Driving the loaner was nothing like driving my 2018 MS P100D; completely different feel, slow which isn’t surprising since the 75D goes 0 to 60 in 5.2 secs vs 2.28 for the SP100D - same suspension or not. I generally dislike driving full size sedans but I love driving the SP100D because it does not feel like a boat at all as big and heavy (boatlike) as it is. It is freakishly fast, fastest 0 to 60 production car around under 800k+.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to be comparing the S 75D (or the P3D+) to the SP100D which basically costs double: Totally different cars/different markets like comparing a Mercedes E class to a Mercedes S - as Tesla becomes a more mass market brand.

So it’s a rocket boat.

Feel based on 0-60 makes sense. The hyperbole re: handling didn’t. Agree that the cars need to be more differentiated.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

So it’s a rocket boat.

Feel based on 0-60 makes sense. The hyperbole re: handling didn’t. Agree that the cars need to be more differentiated.

Admit you are just jealous because the rocket boat/soccer mom car can smoke your P3D+ . Hahaha!

My brother who drives a Porsche 911 Turbo (or a real sports car as he calls it) can’t stand it either.

 

[Galve2000]

One of the things that irks me about the Tesla showrooms is they do not have enough examples of the interior of their cars on display.

i'll back up for a a second..

my current car has the all grey leather interior available back in 2015.

my next Model S -- if I want a "similar" look -- I will have to go w\ the white vegan "leather" -- which IMO looks horrible -- so I am actually leaning towards going with the tan vegan leather instead of the white.

except try as I might.. I have not SEEN the tan vegan "leather" in real life bc all of the cars in the showrooms I have visited carry either black or white interiors.

you get a color swath on the wall of the show room that shows the other available options. but it is a little to abstract for my feeble brain to really get a feel for what the color will look like.

i'm also not excited for the cream headliner that ships with the tan vegan leather and may just bite the bullet and go with white so that I can get the black headliner.

a few months ago when I dropped off my car to fix a stuck door handle I got a ride to my office from a Tesla service tech in a Model X with the white interior. it was only a 15-20 minute drive, but it was enough to confirm that I hate the white vegan interior.

(i'm sorry.. but it looks CHEAP...)

I may just have to custom upholster my next Model S. (sorry cows)

Tesla needs more examples of the available interiors in their showrooms...