Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

How does a Supercharger work?

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
No, the battery is a pretty low impedance device, so you aren't going to see too much voltage change as current changes except at either end where it's at low/high SOC and the chemistry gets less efficient. The voltage is AC when on normal because that can have a drastic output on charge speed when you are limited to a fixed amperage in. It's simply a courtesy that they show us DC voltage when on superchargers and it means thay can show us geeks all the stats. =) There is also so much current coming in, it varies quote a lot over a short time so it's interesting.

All the user really cares about is the kW rate in, so that's what I watch. It's also nice to know that your kW is being limited by the input voltage/current in the case of AC. An example of this is some commercial stations with 208v wye-connected service vs 240v delta. When supercharging, the limit is really only the pack's capability (DeltaT rise).

- - - Updated - - -

Someone had reported that the US chargers will step down amps at higher voltages to keep a max power of 10 kW... I admit I haven't tried it.

I can confirm cars with Gen 2 chargers exceed 10kW when sourced with > 240v input. I don't know what the max output is at this point yet, but I can confirm about 11kW output when sourced with 267v/40A. Not sure about G1 yet, but I'll run the test soon.
 
This thread had me wondering about this, and it's neat to hear that someone's actually tried it. Too bad it'd probably set off some alarm bells over at Tesla if something went wrong and they had to pull the logs, since I'm certain the wall voltage shows up there. I'm also guessing that the efficiency loss from using the boost transformer really wouldn't make the extra 10-25% kW (25% if you could actually get all the way to 300V) worth the trouble.

Transformers are pretty efficient and electricity is pretty cheap. If you can gain a 25% charge speed increase with only a minor efficiency hit, why not? It would be hard for Tesla to claim wrongdoing when their own label shows the voltage range up to 300v. I don't want to go over 277v though because the G1 chargers have that as their max imput, and I like to be able to offer fellow Tesla owners the use of my HPWC when needed in a pinch. So to do this right, (to accommodate both types of chargers) you need a roughly 3kW 36v transformer. This sounds exactly what you'd find in a surplus electric golf-cart or forklift charger. Hmm...
 
Ok, but interestingly then, when you're connected to AC, the car shows AC voltage, where if you're connected to DC, it shows DC voltage.

What I would expect, is that if you're charging from e.g. 9 chargers, during tapering the 9 chargers would progressively step down their DC voltage, then 1 charger will fall away - which changes the internal resistance of the remaining chargers. The remaining chargers would then have to up the voltage again to compensate, and the progressively step down again.

In other words I expect the DC voltage to go down and back up around 12 times during charging. But it doesn't?

Don't you think there is a transformer in front of all the 12 chargers? And that they can accept prettly low voltages as well as higher than 240V?
 
Don't you think there is a transformer in front of all the 12 chargers? And that they can accept prettly low voltages as well as higher than 240V?

This has to do with output voltages (the DC side), not input voltages.

The output voltage has to be regulated in order to regulate the number of amps drawn by the car. Since you can't actually just "push" a specific number of amps to a device - if you want to restrict amps, you have to coerce the device somehow to draw fewer amps from you than its internal resistance can handle. Lowering the voltage you provide to it is one way to do that, and Ingineer confirmed that's in fact what it's doing (via PWM).

Put another way: Ohms law is not negotiable :).
 
This has to do with output voltages (the DC side), not input voltages.

The output voltage has to be regulated in order to regulate the number of amps drawn by the car. Since you can't actually just "push" a specific number of amps to a device - if you want to restrict amps, you have to coerce the device somehow to draw fewer amps from you than its internal resistance can handle. Lowering the voltage you provide to it is one way to do that, and Ingineer confirmed that's in fact what it's doing (via PWM).

Put another way: Ohms law is not negotiable :).

Yes and the way to regulate the DC output voltage of the chargers is to vary the AC imput voltage in to them, is what I'm saying. Of course there is a smart circuit controlling this but I'm saying the way the Supercharger as a whole varies it's DC output voltage is by having the AC voltage delivered to each and every subunit charger be varied.
 
Yes and the way to regulate the DC output voltage of the chargers is to vary the AC imput voltage in to them, is what I'm saying. Of course there is a smart circuit controlling this but I'm saying the way the Supercharger as a whole varies it's DC output voltage is by having the AC voltage delivered to each and every subunit charger be varied.

I doubt it. These are the same 10kW chargers you have in your car.

We know you can arbitrarily restrict the device in the car to any number of amps you want (from the console), and that can't cause it to have any input to it other than the 110VAC or 240VAC from your source.

So it's more likely the way Ingineer said - that during AC to DC conversion, the chargers regulate their output DC voltage using PWM to the desired level that would cause a specific current to be drawn. You can supply them with any A/C voltage, within tolerance.
 
I doubt it. These are the same 10kW chargers you have in your car.

We know you can arbitrarily restrict the device in the car to any number of amps you want (from the console), and that can't cause it to have any input to it other than the 110VAC or 240VAC from your source.

So it's more likely the way Ingineer said - that during AC to DC conversion, the chargers regulate their output DC voltage using PWM to the desired level that would cause a specific current to be drawn. You can supply them with any A/C voltage, within tolerance.

This makes sense yes, but they could be wired to work the way I described when they're part of a Supercharger as opposed to built in.
 
This makes sense yes, but they could be wired to work the way I described when they're part of a Supercharger as opposed to built in.

You could... variable A/C transformers do exist, but these are big expensive monstrosities that are manually switched. So they have associated wear-and-tear with them, and they take seconds to switch voltages rather than milliseconds. They're also generally switched by hand, although I guess you can use an actuator. They'll be especially expensive because we know the tapering is accurate to at least 1 kW, maybe even more, so it would have to have at least 100 voltage slots to account for the different outputs.

You'll also need 2 of these per Supercharger tower, as each car can be at an independent part of the taper. So if you have a 12-car Supercharger station, you'll need 12 transformers.

-or-

You can write about 100 lines of controller code and just use the car charger as-is...
 
I can confirm cars with Gen 2 chargers exceed 10kW when sourced with > 240v input. I don't know what the max output is at this point yet, but I can confirm about 11kW output when sourced with 267v/40A. Not sure about G1 yet, but I'll run the test soon.

When I said "US" I was referring to the gen 1 chargers... sorry about the lack of clarity.
 
Ok. I can't take it anymore. I try not to post to these forums because it enrages all the poseurs and wannabees. But I can't take it any more on this supercharger thing.

There is no magic. they are 12 chargers JUST like the ones in your car. When you connect AC to your car on your home charger, the J1772 circuitry in the car detects the pilot signal and starts the EVSE (the part on the wall) to the charger (the device in the car).

On the Supercharger, the pilot signal is somewhat different. The car detects this and enters a 33.3kbps data conversation using Single Wire CAN. It is VERY close to a standard CHAdeMO exchange with a couple of very minor differences. It passes your VIN and it has the ability to restart the entire conversation on changes in the power source caused by things like other cars plugging in next to you, clouds passing over solar panels, etc.

In the event of a successful CHAdeMO exchange, the CAR connects the two large pins of the connector directly to the battery pack through a couple of contactors in the junction box ENTIRELY BYPASSING your onboard charger. And from there, the DC power is provided by the 12 "chargers" in the Supercharger station. But everything about that is pretty much controlled by the battery management system in the car - how much current, what voltage it charges to, etc. and including determining the point at which charging terminates. The EVSE does get to vote I suppose in case of error or as earlier mentioned, lower power availability. But other than that, the CAR is directing all aspects of Supercharger power production.

Now let's talk about the charger. As noted, it is the SAME charger whether in the car or in the Supercharger charging station.

The first stage of the charger is a semiconductor full bridge rectifier. It converts AC, typically 85 to 260 vac, to a DC voltage which is further smoothed by some input capacitors. This is Vi in the attached diagram.

The rest of the charger is an isolated DC switched power supply. The attached diagram would be the simplest possible version and the one in the charger is much more advanced, mostly with more switches and inductors, but really operates in the end almost identically to this very basic buck/boost converter.

Switch S1 is a semiconductor IGBT (insulated gate bi-polar transistor) that basically is switched on and off at a fixed frequency but a variable pulse width. When it switches on, current flows from the negative terminal of the DC input up through the inductor (coil) and through the switch to the positive terminal of the DC input. Note that all the circuitry on the battery side is kind of out of the picture here.

The current through the coil causes a magnetic field that resists this surge in current and grows as a function of the amount of current through the coil. In this way, energy is "stored" in the magnetic field surrounding the coil. When S1 is opened, the magnetic field COLLAPSES inducing a current in the coil in the same direction. But this requires the polarity of the voltage in the coil to reverse. And that causes current flow through the diode D into capacitor C where it is stored.

The switching of S1 is typically at a frequency where the inductor is always expanding or collapsing the field. And capacitor C is more or less continously receiving pulses of current.

The level of energy in C is modulated by the PULSE WIDTH of S1. If we have a frequency of 10 kHz, for example, our period would be 100 microseconds. If S1 is on for 10 usec and off for 90 usec then the voltage level at C would be 10% of the input voltage. The input voltage of rectified 220vac is roughly 310vdc.

We can increase this power output by increasing the pulse width of S1. And we can decrease it by decreasing it again.

If we connect all this to a battery, you would not actually observe much of a change in voltage at the output R. The voltage would gradually increase as the charge level of the battery increases. Changes would be felt as changes in current to the batteries. And so we can increase the current by increasing the pulse width and decrease the current by decreasing it.


When the car battery reaches some previously agreed voltage level, the car changes the CONTINOUSLY transmitted current request to a lower value. S1 pulse width is decreased and the current is decreased in proportion. if the voltage of the pack rises ever so slightly beyond the target voltage, the car simply again revises its currrent request to a lower value. In this way, it maintains a CONSTANT VOLTAGE during this CV phase of the charge. Once current decreases to soem predetermined level, it terminates the charging session.

Understand that all 12 EVSE chargers can have their outputs all ganged together on a single output bus and ALL the S1's are adjusted together. But the Supercharger can also connect any number of chargers to either of two output busses, with two control channels to do CAN. And so it can indeed charge two cars at the same time. But power would be reduced to BOTH cars. And which is favored over the other would be purely a matter of the firmware in the EVSE Supercharger Station. And again, more or less unlike CHAdeMO, the Supercharger can send a renegotiate signal to a car AT ANY TIME forcing the initial negotiation for current available to be revisited. This would happen so quickly and so smoothly you as a car observer would never know it happened beyond a decrease in power which you might observe.

There are no huge spikes of voltage involved at any point. When the output bus is first connected by contactor to the battery pack, it isn't energized at all. Power is produced to that bus only AFTER the connection is made and actually both the EVSE and the car have to "vote" on making the connection. Either can force a disconnect at any time, but would normally drop the power level to zero before disconnecting.

The concept of a magic variable AC transformer, while comical, almost describes a switching DC power supply, which is what this is. But the output is ultimately DC, not AC.

The actual charger has more switches and inductors and actually provides true isolation in this way. So you really cannot be "electrocuted" or anything even if you touch ONE of the high voltage terminals while it is live. There is no path to ground either in the car or in the EVSE. If you get across both output terminals, you can indeed get a headache. Even then not normally a fatal one.

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me
 

Attachments

  • Buckboost_conventions.svg.png
    Buckboost_conventions.svg.png
    23.6 KB · Views: 275
Sorry if this has been resolved but I didn't want to read through. It is FIFO. I know because the other day I pulled into an "A" stall and was severely depressed until the "B" stall starting tapering due to end of charge. Finally when they finished it kicked up. That's real life operation.

The B stall is slave to the A. I'm not saying it cuts off the B and gives everything to the A side, I'm saying the priority is with A. Were you at one of the older 90kWh Superchargers? Did you see if your charge rate went up to 118-120kWh? I've seen different SC behavior at the newer Texas SC locations. I was in the middle of a charge on an A side when another user plugged into my B side. I watched to see what my car would do and the charge rate stayed the same. Once I spoke with the driver, I saw they were getting maybe 1/4 the rate they should get, so I told them to move to another numbered bay. Of course, their rate shot up to normal, but mine stayed the same rate, throughout.
 
Sorry if this has been resolved but I didn't want to read through. It is FIFO. I know because the other day I pulled into an "A" stall and was severely depressed until the "B" stall starting tapering due to end of charge. Finally when they finished it kicked up. That's real life operation.


The B stall is slave to the A. I'm not saying it cuts off the B and gives everything to the A side, I'm saying the priority is with A. Were you at one of the older 90kWh Superchargers? Did you see if your charge rate went up to 118-120kWh? I've seen different SC behavior at the newer Texas SC locations. I was in the middle of a charge on an A side when another user plugged into my B side. I watched to see what my car would do and the charge rate stayed the same. Once I spoke with the driver, I saw they were getting maybe 1/4 the rate they should get, so I told them to move to another numbered bay. Of course, their rate shot up to normal, but mine stayed the same rate, throughout.

The priority is with whoever pulls in and starts charging first, as both your experiences indicate.
 
Interesting perspective. I know that I've read on other forums that the first gen charger (the one limited to 277v) will only maintain 40 amps until 250v (10kW) then the amps decrease to 36 amps at 277v to maintain 10kW. This was actually tested with a "boost" transformer.

It may be instructive for folks in countries outside North America that the charger in their EU spec car is different for three phase AC power.
 
Interesting perspective. I know that I've read on other forums that the first gen charger (the one limited to 277v) will only maintain 40 amps until 250v (10kW) then the amps decrease to 36 amps at 277v to maintain 10kW. This was actually tested with a "boost" transformer.

It may be instructive for folks in countries outside North America that the charger in their EU spec car is different for three phase AC power.

But that doesn't mean the charger can't handle it, it just means that Tesla's car software controlling the charger keeps the power draw under 10 kW. In the cabinet, the software can do different things.