Health Care (out of Main)

[MarcusMaximus]

Politically, Musk has described himself as "half Democrat, half Republican" and "I'm somewhere in the middle, socially liberal and fiscally conservative."

So by his own admission he is a fiscal conservative... what does this mean?

Fiscal conservatism - Wikipedia

> Fiscal conservatism, also referred to as conservative economics or economic conservatism, is a political-economic philosophy regarding fiscal policy and fiscal responsibility advocating low taxes, reduced government spending and minimal government debt.[1] Free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes and privatization are the defining qualities of fiscal conservatism. Fiscal conservatism follows the same philosophical outlook of classical liberalism and economic liberalism.[2] The term has its origins in the era of the New Deal during the 1930s as a result of the policies initiated by reform or modern liberals, when many classical liberals started calling themselves conservatives as they did not wish to be identified with what was passing for liberalism.

Note the part about low taxes

Looking up a category of political beliefs a person seems to ascribe to and then assuming they ascribe to every subset of that belief is generally a mistake. I, for example, consider myself mostly libertarian but also support single-payer universal healthcare.

 

[K_Dizzle]

Looking up a category of political beliefs a person seems to ascribe to and then assuming they ascribe to every subset of that belief is generally a mistake. I, for example, consider myself mostly libertarian but also support single-payer universal healthcare.

As a Canadian, trust me you DO NOT want this

 

[JRP3]

As a Canadian, trust me you DO NOT want this

As a U.S. citizen I do.

 

[neroden]

OT

As a Canadian, trust me you DO NOT want this

Yes, we absolutely do. You've clearly never dealt with the US health care disaster. If you were forced into the disastrous US health care non-system, you would be begging on your knees to have the Canadian system back.


At this point Mexico's single-payer (well, dual-payer) system is providing better health care than the US non-system.

 

[madodel]

OT


Yes, we absolutely do. You've clearly never dealt with the US health care disaster. If you were forced into the disastrous US health care non-system, you would be begging on your knees to have the Canadian system back.


At this point Mexico's single-payer (well, dual-payer) system is providing better health care than the US non-system.

I've been involved in healthcare in the US for 40 years. My wife is a physician, I was an RN and a Hospital System developer who worked on Hospital billing systems among others and even we were screwed over by our stupid health insurance system. Luckily we could afford the insane surprise bills. Canada may not be perfect but I have never heard of anyone being bankrupted because they needed care there. That happens in the US regularly. Also our healthcare system is twice the cost of any other nation's healthcare and outcomes are better in most of the rest of the world. Pharmaceutical companies are raping all of us. I was on a year long healthcare roundtable panel where even an anti-government Libertarian physician agreed we need to legalize government right to negotiate drug prices for Medicare, reform the current patent system that allows endless manipulation of drug pricing and stop allowing huge conglomerates from buying up generic manufacturers to establish pricing cartels.

 

[brian45011]

I find this perplexing, but that's the country I live in.

Why stay here? There's a great big world out there.

 

[BornToFly]

In Canada they wait 6-12 months for a back MRI and another year for surgery. That is two years of potentially debilitating pain and possible permanent nerve injury. Wealthy Canadians come to the US all the time for timely health care. As a surgeon in the U.S., I can safely say that people that want that type of system have no clue what they are talking about.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Canada may not be perfect but I have never heard of anyone being bankrupted because they needed care there. That happens in the US regularly

From what I understand, this is one of the only bankruptcy conditions that have no impact on your credit score. Even banks recognize its ridiculous and aberrant that someone can be instantly bankrupted by a costly life-saving procedure

Edit: also, apologies for starting this tangent. It began innocently enough.

 

[ClimateOptimst]

In Canada they wait 6-12 months for a back MRI and another year for surgery. That is two years of potentially debilitating pain and possible permanent nerve injury. Wealthy Canadians come to the US all the time for timely health care. As a surgeon in the U.S., I can safely say that people that want that type of system have no clue what they are talking about.

At least it's a system. There are tens of millions of people in the US with no health care, so they just endure the pain or go to the emergency room after waiting too long. Lot of unnecessary cruelty and human suffering from the US lack of even an imperfect system. Sad and disgraceful for a country as wealthy as ours...

 

[Webeevdrivers]

In Canada they wait 6-12 months for a back MRI and another year for surgery. That is two years of potentially debilitating pain and possible permanent nerve injury. Wealthy Canadians come to the US all the time for timely health care. As a surgeon in the U.S., I can safely say that people that want that type of system have no clue what they are talking about.

Yah. Total BS on every level. No one in my close or distant family has experienced anything like you are referring to. Any procedure is triaged in Canada. If you need a test or something fast you get it. If you don’t you don’t. It’s not a perfect system but it works. Canadians live 3.5 years longer than Americans and our life spans are getting longer. Americans live 3.5 years less and life spans are getting shorter. My family has had its share of issues in the last 6 or 7 years and the systym has been outstanding in two different provinces. Back, hips, knees, cancer, heart. Our extended family has seen it all. No complaints. We own property and live in the states a few months of the year. Lots of American friends and some family. I don’t care if you are a surgeon. You are misinformed.

 

[EVNow]

In Canada they wait 6-12 months for a back MRI and another year for surgery. That is two years of potentially debilitating pain and possible permanent nerve injury. Wealthy Canadians come to the US all the time for timely health care. As a surgeon in the U.S., I can safely say that people that want that type of system have no clue what they are talking about.

This kind of FUD doesn't work in an international forum.

 

[Steve m]

Isn't there a specific thread for politics?

 

[LN1_Casey]

Walk away from a problem. Endeavour to fix a problem.
The latter is best, collectively speaking.

Besides, immigration to another country does not immediately negate all the bag things. For one, can the person even immigrate to their country of choice? Do they speak the language? Japan immigration requires people to have a 4 year degree from a recognized university just to get a working permit, and even then it's a complex system in a language the North American likely doesn't even know.

Immigration to another country also is EXTREMELY expensive, and takes months for house hold goods/vehicle to arrive. Can they even afford that, working a possibly middling just above poverty line job? Or even, can they get such a job in the new country?

Further, who's to say the new country is "better"? Each country has it's own identity, which may or may not mash up with the person's identity. For instance, the frequency of strikes in France in comparison to the States. Or the overt sexism in Japan.

Sometimes the better option is to stay where you are and try to improve it.

 

[Carl Raymond]

Besides, immigration to another country does not immediately negate all the bag things. For one, can the person even immigrate to their country of choice? Do they speak the language? Japan immigration requires people to have a 4 year degree from a recognized university just to get a working permit, and even then it's a complex system in a language the North American likely doesn't even know.

Immigration to another country also is EXTREMELY expensive, and takes months for house hold goods/vehicle to arrive. Can they even afford that, working a possibly middling just above poverty line job? Or even, can they get such a job in the new country?

Further, who's to say the new country is "better"? Each country has it's own identity, which may or may not mash up with the person's identity. For instance, the frequency of strikes in France in comparison to the States. Or the overt sexism in Japan.

Sometimes the better option is to stay where you are and try to improve it.

It would be pretty cool if you could pick the best from each country. My partner’s sister lives in Houston, was Australian, and we have discussed these things. I can pretty confidently say:

Healthcare. Australia clear winner, with safety net.
Gun control. Australia clear winner.
Technology. Careers. USA wins.
Affordable EVs. USA wins.
Political voting system. Australia wins with mandatory voting.
Political leadership. Both losers. USA have a denialist. We have a coal supporter.
Public transport. Australia ahead on trains, though buses and ferries need electrification (see leadership problem).

Edit: Media. Australia wins having the ABC public broadcaster, but also loses having high percentage of Rupert Murdoch owned media.

 

[Buckminster]

Besides, immigration to another country does not immediately negate all the bag things. For one, can the person even immigrate to their country of choice? Do they speak the language? Japan immigration requires people to have a 4 year degree from a recognized university just to get a working permit, and even then it's a complex system in a language the North American likely doesn't even know.

Immigration to another country also is EXTREMELY expensive, and takes months for house hold goods/vehicle to arrive. Can they even afford that, working a possibly middling just above poverty line job? Or even, can they get such a job in the new country?

Further, who's to say the new country is "better"? Each country has it's own identity, which may or may not mash up with the person's identity. For instance, the frequency of strikes in France in comparison to the States. Or the overt sexism in Japan.

Sometimes the better option is to stay where you are and try to improve it.

Easy for you to say. Which house is yours:?

 

[LN1_Casey]

Easy for you to say. Which house is yours:?

This one ;

All jokes aside, however, I can go on quite a rant about the terrible quality of things here. It's all a matter of perspective. I'm jealous of your UK location!

 

[alloverx]

It would be pretty cool if you could pick the best from each country. My partner’s sister lives in Houston, was Australian, and we have discussed these things. I can pretty confidently say:

Healthcare. Australia clear winner, with safety net.
Gun control. Australia clear winner.
Technology. Careers. USA wins.
Affordable EVs. USA wins.
Political voting system. Australia wins with mandatory voting.
Political leadership. Both losers. USA have a denialist. We have a coal supporter.
Public transport. Australia ahead on trains, though buses and ferries need electrification (see leadership problem).

Edit: Media. Australia wins having the ABC public broadcaster, but also loses having high percentage of Rupert Murdoch owned media.

Comparing western countries there are always PROs and CONs.

Having lived in both countries some items depend on where you live.
-Especially true for public transport

e.g. if you are not interested in voting then why should you have to?
I think it is good to vote for the president (a person) rather than the party choosing a leader behind closed doors.

The publicity that Elon gets when he goes to Australia certainly raises the TESLA profile.

In terms of (TESLA) EVs, one could argue giving Federal Credits to people buying $80,000+ vehicles is subsidizing the rich.
Tesla's are being sold in Australia without subsidy's.
Certainly having EV incentives speeds things along plus a strong brand like TESLA is a great combination.

Releasing the M3 in RHD countries is certain good PR for TESLA and should encourage the Share Price but realistically its all about the results in the US, China and Europe. I think China will go great next year with local M3 versions and the Model Y release is going to unleash some serious demand in the US and should drive the SP much higher

 

[jerry33]

As a Canadian, trust me you DO NOT want this

As a person who lived in Canada for a very long time, you want this. The alternative is bankruptcy if a serious illness strikes or you require medication.

 

[Fact Checking]

OT universal healthcare:

As a person who lived in Canada for a very long time, you want this. The alternative is bankruptcy if a serious illness strikes or you require medication.

There are also other dangers of not having robust healthcare and worrying about costs as a patient:

• You forego life saving medical exams and checkups due to their costs. You ignore symptoms, in the hope that they are benign, which they often are, until they aren't. This can be life threatening in the case of cancer, respiratory and cardiovascular diseases - leading causes of death, and often highly and cheaply treatable conditions if detected early enough.
• There's a study that robustly established the link between willingness of young entrepreneurs to risk launching a startup and universal healthcare availability: medical bankruptcy is one of the leading causes why small companies fail in the U.S., and you might end up jobless and in the pre-Obamacare era with no chance to get insurance due to a pre-existing condition.
  
• As a European I never had to deal with medical bills in Europe, ever (with the exception of non-emergency tooth treatments which are often not covered or not fully covered) - and there was never a financial discussion with doctors or hospital staff. This is an entirely foreign concept to most Americans. About 60% of all American families are financially vulnerable who couldn't pay a sudden $2,000 expense (!), the danger and stress of a very high medical bill even if you are covered is significant. About ~20% of all covered Americans report that they've been hit with unexpected out of network charges in their life.

The whole idea of the health of a modern society being a free market product is sick:

• There's no real price discovery: insurance contracts are super opaque (and intentionally so), and while being sick one has a very limited scope to shop for the right treatment.
• People don't chose to be ill or have accidents, so there's very little historic track record in Europe of people abusing tax financed health care systems. The worst I've seen is old, lonely ladies going to a doctor's appointment to small-talk, and there's the occasional case of homeless people going to the hospital for the free food and lodging. That's about the extent of it - 99% of people want to stay out of hospitals as much as they can.

I.e. key elements of a competition driven free market are absent from the healthcare market, resulting in distortions and market failure.

 

[Mader Levap]

Why stay here? There's a great big world out there.

Translation: "go away and shut up".