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Has anyone had to install a charger with a less than ideal breaker panel location?
- Thread starter SpencerR
- Start date
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
Best bang for your buck would be to drag 6/2 Romex thru the attic to feed a wall charger on a 50A breaker for 40A charge capacity. Imagine how many hours that would take and then add a few hundred dollars in materials.
If you just point electricians to Tesla.com and let them figure it out they'll propose the 60A maximum which vastly increases cost. Plus they might not think to omit the neutral wire and they might not know that GFCI's are not recommended. So tell them you want a 50A circuit with only 2 conductors, not 3, and a standard breaker.
If you just point electricians to Tesla.com and let them figure it out they'll propose the 60A maximum which vastly increases cost. Plus they might not think to omit the neutral wire and they might not know that GFCI's are not recommended. So tell them you want a 50A circuit with only 2 conductors, not 3, and a standard breaker.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Most of the extra cost is probably in the wire materials. What would really up your costs is if your service/panel does not have space for it. I presume you looked at it already and it has capacity?
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Your cost is going to be dictated by the length of the run and the difficulty of the run. And those will be dictated by what paths are available to you or an electrician.
Do you have a crawl space? An attic? An unfinished basement? A finished basement but with removable ceiling tiles or other access to plumbing/electrical?
The possible path(s) between your panel and your garage are what you need to identify.
Do you have a crawl space? An attic? An unfinished basement? A finished basement but with removable ceiling tiles or other access to plumbing/electrical?
The possible path(s) between your panel and your garage are what you need to identify.
davewill
Active Member
There's no real substitute for simply getting a couple of quotes. When you do, make sure you clearly understand what they are proposing to do in their quote: What kind of wire and what size breaker? Where will they run it? Will they be pulling the permit? Will you have to take care of drywall patching? If they suggest something expensive like a panel or service upgrade, make sure you know exactly why, and be sure to ask about alternatives, like a lower amperage circuit.
I'm also curious that you say there are no 240v circuits in the house. Modern building codes usually require 240v outlets for the range and the dryer, even if they are also plumbed for natural gas. Are you sure there isn't an unused outlet behind one of them? I don't really expect them to be too useful, even if you do find them, as they would still need to be extended into the garage (which code might not allow), but it does feel like an oddity.
I'm also curious that you say there are no 240v circuits in the house. Modern building codes usually require 240v outlets for the range and the dryer, even if they are also plumbed for natural gas. Are you sure there isn't an unused outlet behind one of them? I don't really expect them to be too useful, even if you do find them, as they would still need to be extended into the garage (which code might not allow), but it does feel like an oddity.
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roblab
Active Member
I never saw a crawl space or a basement until I moved out of California. Seems they're not needed here. But most houses have an attic, and that's how I'd do it: run some 6/3 romex across the attic to the garage.
@SpencerR I really do like this suggestion a lot. If the locations are going to be up in attic spaces or up and down through insulated walls, that's what Romex cable is meant for, and it becomes a significant cost jump going from a 50A circuit to a 60A one because of the wire size having to move up from 6 gauge to 4 gauge.
First step, though, would be to get a load calculation to check how many spare amps you have available for a new circuit. But that's a fairly new looking house, so probably has a big main service, and apparently not a lot of electrical capacity already spoken for, so that should be fine to have 50A available.
Thanks for all the replies. The electrician quoted $1950 to run smurf conduit up from the panel into the crawl space above the red circle and over the middle of the house (where crawl space becomes attic) and finally found into the garage. The quote was for 60a breaker, conduit, 6# wire, and of course mounting and installing the wall connector.
He said the problem with Romex is lack of heat dissipation. He said romex would be fine for something that was going to be pulling current for short periods of time (like an oven cooking for an hour) but he said not for something that is going to be drawing for 5+ hours straight like a Tesla at 10% battery.
ATPMSD
Active Member
If labor is included that seems like a pretty good price given the distance. Just make sure the #6 wire is rated for a full 60a and not anything lower. By way of example only, #6 Romex is rated at 55a and would not be suitable for a 60a circuit.
Yeah I was shocked by the price. I was expecting well over 3k. He explained everything really well and knew what he was talking about. Didn't leave any doubt in my mind that he knew what he was doing. I found the company from plugging my zip code into the Tesla website, so it's a certified Tesla charger installer. So it all feels good and the price is great.
You didn't get a 2nd and 3rd quotes? When I was installing NEMA 14-50 outlet, I got 3 or 4 quotes. The ones that I got from Tesla websites are the highest by far. I ended up with a local electrician I found on Yelp with very high review and paid half the price of the ones from Tesla's website.
Also $2k does not sound too bad actually here in CA.
davewill
Active Member
Let me guess, they skipped the permit and inspection to get you that low price? Not much of a deal if it causes you headaches later.
No. This was over 4 years ago before Model 3. So anyone who owns a Tesla is considered "rich". The electricians listed on Tesla website KNOWS that you are installing for Tesla and they charge you the Tesla premium. The local electricians just know that I am getting a NEMA 14-50 outlet. I told them on the phone that it is for a RV. The price difference is HUGE. My outlet is on the other side of the panel in the garage. Tesla recommended electricians wants $800 to $1000. The local ones wants $300 to $400. And my local ones know the city code and all the inspectors from the city. The Tesla ones are from like 20+ miles away.
Uh, wellll... Reading this didn't give me confidence:
That is true facts but leading to a ridiculous, nonsensical fallacious conclusion! Yes, Romex does not have as good heat dissipation. But that is exactly why it has a lower temperature rating with more restrictive current limits to account for that!! It doesn't mean you can't use it for continuous current loads.
Check out this table:
Cerrowire Resources - Ampacity Charts
Ampacity is the maximum current that a conductor can carry continuously under the conditions of use without exceeding its temperature rating. Cerrowire's ampacity chart helps calculate the load requirement for a circuit.
www.cerrowire.com
Let's say you want to do a 50A circuit. Where do you see the gauge size for each wire type that meets at least 50A? If it's wire in conduit, you could do that with 8 gauge wire. If Romex, 8 gauge is only rated to 40A, so no go. You would have to go up to 6 gauge on the Romex to get the 55A rating level to use it for a 50A circuit. And that's just how you pick the proper size. It doesn't mean the Romex is dangerous or incompatible. You just have to use thicker wire to account for the extra margin because of the worse heat dissipation capability.
So Romex would be totally fine for this, as long as you select a big enough wire gauge of it, which usually will be thicker than wires in conduit.
Okay, appreciate that. We are doing 60A for the 48A draw. 6# wire in conduit. Whatever is safest is good with me. If the better heat dissipation is achieved with wire in conduit then that's great for me.Uh, wellll... Reading this didn't give me confidence:
That is true facts but leading to a ridiculous, nonsensical fallacious conclusion! Yes, Romex does not have as good heat dissipation. But that is exactly why it has a lower temperature rating with more restrictive current limits to account for that!! It doesn't mean you can't use it for continuous current loads.
Check out this table:
Cerrowire Resources - Ampacity Charts
Ampacity is the maximum current that a conductor can carry continuously under the conditions of use without exceeding its temperature rating. Cerrowire's ampacity chart helps calculate the load requirement for a circuit.
Let's say you want to do a 50A circuit. Where do you see the gauge size for each wire type that meets at least 50A? If it's wire in conduit, you could do that with 8 gauge wire. If Romex, 8 gauge is only rated to 40A, so no go. You would have to go up to 6 gauge on the Romex to get the 55A rating level to use it for a 50A circuit. And that's just how you pick the proper size. It doesn't mean the Romex is dangerous or incompatible. You just have to use thicker wire to account for the extra margin because of the worse heat dissipation capability.
So Romex would be totally fine for this, as long as you select a big enough wire gauge of it, which usually will be thicker than wires in conduit.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
Do you have a dedicated outlet near the parking space? That's where the outlet is the only thing on the breaker, or perhaps where you can remove all other outlets on that breaker without much burden? If so, do the following or pay an electrician a fairly small amount to do the following. This is for a 15a circuit, but if you are lucky enough to have a dedicated 20a (It will have a plug with a T-blade and 20a breaker) that's even better.
Wait, won't there be some day when I drive a lot one day, come home and have to drive the full range of the car the next day? Yup. For most people that will happen only a couple times a year. And guess what, if you are driving that far you are sure to pass a supercharger. So go to the supercharger a few times a year. It costs a bit more money but is WAY less than the cost of pulling new wire.
There are a few folks who can't work with this. They drive their cars 50,000 miles a year. But the average person drives under 40 miles/day. Your big battery gives you the freedom to handle some days being more and some being less and still get by fine.
The change described above is very cheap. It's just a small amount of time for your electrician and many people can DIY. Running new wires through walls is great if you can do that cheap, but if you can't, do this. Or even see how well you can do with Level 1 or 20a Level 1. I went for 2 years on 20a Level 1 and visited the supercharger once in those 2 years. It actually works. If you have charging at work it's even easier.
- Confirm your wire is rated for 240v. It almost always is rated for much more like 600v
- Put a 6-15R plug on the end (or if lucky, a 6-20R) This is 240v 15a
- Replace the breaker with a 2-pole 240v breaker and connect the former live and neutral to the two hots of the breaker
- Double check that there was no other plug on that circuit. Make sure all other plugs are on and 120v while this breaker was off. (Do that first, actually, but double check.)
- Buy the 6-15P plug for your Tesla Mobile Connector. (Alternate plan, hardwire this into Tesla Wall Connector.)
Wait, won't there be some day when I drive a lot one day, come home and have to drive the full range of the car the next day? Yup. For most people that will happen only a couple times a year. And guess what, if you are driving that far you are sure to pass a supercharger. So go to the supercharger a few times a year. It costs a bit more money but is WAY less than the cost of pulling new wire.
There are a few folks who can't work with this. They drive their cars 50,000 miles a year. But the average person drives under 40 miles/day. Your big battery gives you the freedom to handle some days being more and some being less and still get by fine.
The change described above is very cheap. It's just a small amount of time for your electrician and many people can DIY. Running new wires through walls is great if you can do that cheap, but if you can't, do this. Or even see how well you can do with Level 1 or 20a Level 1. I went for 2 years on 20a Level 1 and visited the supercharger once in those 2 years. It actually works. If you have charging at work it's even easier.
Thanks for the detailed write up but I drive several hundred miles per week for work, and will have the LFP battery which recommends 100% charge as often as possible.
$2k is a great price. I pad $1250 to run a 60 amp circuit from one side of the garage, up thru the crawl space, and down teh other side. Also needed a sub-panel installed.
Do I need a Tesla Wall Charger? No.
Do I need to charge at 48 amp? No.
An I glad that I installed the Wall Charger and 60 amp circuit? Absolutely!
It's a simple job for a licensed electrician. The firms on the Tesla website were 2-3x.
btw: "I never saw a crawl space or a basement until I moved out of California." I grew up in the East Bay and every friends' house had a basement, as did our house (circa 1910).
Do I need a Tesla Wall Charger? No.
Do I need to charge at 48 amp? No.
An I glad that I installed the Wall Charger and 60 amp circuit? Absolutely!
It's a simple job for a licensed electrician. The firms on the Tesla website were 2-3x.
btw: "I never saw a crawl space or a basement until I moved out of California." I grew up in the East Bay and every friends' house had a basement, as did our house (circa 1910).
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bradtem
Robocar consultant
There is some debate about the charging to 100%. Tesla does say to do it with LFP (definitely not with regular LNC) but not because it's good for the battery, but because it helps the car measure the battery SoC better.
If you're just driving around town it may not require that accurate a measurement.
As for weekly journey, it of course depends on what is "several" hundred miles. A 2.8kw connection probably can put over 800 miles of range into a car in a week, presuming 11 hours of plug-in weeknights and 14 on weekend days. The key thing people don't realize at first is that it's usually OK to not fill up every night. Though I don't know how inaccurate the SoC gets if you go for too long without a fillup.
So I would say the better recommendation is "charge to 100% if you expect to drive a lot tomorrow" and you will still get better battery life if you charge it to slightly less on other days.
As as you might guess from saying that 15a and 20a are more than enough at 240v, you definitely don't need 60a, or for that matter 50a. In fact, non-long-range Teslas can't use more than 32a, though the argument is that once you are running enough for 40a it's not a lot more for 50a. The other argument is that you might some day have two EVs. 50a is more than enough for two EVs because while that may seem like only 20a each, the reality is they don't both need a complete recharge pretty much ever, and it would be very strange to find a day where you need more than 40a for the two cars overnight. But the electrician is more expensive than the romex once you are running wire.
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